Cloth German Cross in Silver

[Gary Symonds]

Now there is a fact for you that you cannot get around.

Don:
She may be ugly, but she is real and rare. Mine really looks like silver, as bad as it may be. I muddled through the German and your's still looks like gold. So, sour grapes.

[Don D.]

Enjoy it then and quit acting like a three year old. Better yet, try and sell it as a silver one and see if anyone buys it.

[Gary Symonds]

Enjoy it then and quit acting like a three year old. Better yet, try and sell it as a silver one and see if anyone buys it.

Why the personal attack Mr. Moderator? You should know better. There would be a line of guys to buy this, because it is real and in silver.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I don't know who authorizes Mr. Maerz to write a COA but it would hold up no where in a court of law.

Don,

please let me make one final comment on this matter:

I don't think I need anybody or any high level collector institution to authorize me to write a COA and neither myself nor anybody else has or will assert that whatever I write or think about a piece in question should or should not hold up in court.

I was asked to give my opinion which I did. I had the benefit to have the piece in question in my hands and I think you will grant me that I have nothing to gain if I express my honest opinion about this piece. The easy thing would be to "go with the flow" and say "It is a fake" and leave it like that. For me this whole issue (if it is one anyway) is not about whether Don Doering is right or Mr. Maerz has any authority or anybody else is right. For me it is about describing what I see and formulate an opinion about it. This opinion is based - yes - on a certain level of study and experience. And on a big chunk of honesty. Thats all the 'authority' I have and I am comfortable with it.

And just to prove that I know how a "textbook" silver cloth version should look, attached is mine. I also see that it looks different than the one in question. However, I stick to what I said because that is what I saw and what everybody else having the piece in hand can see also.

I will not pretend and have never pretended that I know how everything was done back then. But I will say that I have a certain idea how it is put together. You disagree with it? Perfect! You don't want to buy it! Perfect!

Beyond that I would not know what to say. That I have to adopt your opinion even if it contradicts what I see and think? Bow to "another authority"?

You summed it up perfectly earlier and we should leave it at that: You agree to disagree and that is the only way it can be in this case. We both will never know who is "right".

[Don D.]

No attack, just an observation. Your tone and method of posting doesn't match your claim to profession. Are you saying the wreath is actually made of silver?

[Dietrich Maerz]

I personally don't like when someone starts to compare me with Mr. Ailsby ...

[Gary Symonds]

No attack, just an observation. Your tone and method of posting doesn't match your claim to profession. Are you saying the wreath is actually made of silver?

My tone I suppose is too sophisticated since I tend to deal with facts, because I am a lawyer. Something seldom seen in the forum. Actually, the wreath is not silver but white gold.
The Pakis who dreamed this up and put it together in 1947, discovered a "hoard" of "Nazi gold" at the bottom of an Austrian lake. To cover up this discovery, they changed the gold to white gold, and then cast the white gold into bad wreaths and then they swamped the market with fake silver cloth crosses, so as to smuggle the gold into the US. This explains why the wreath is a casting!

[Sal Williams]

Dietrich, what makes you think it was done wartime? I understand you when You say it is original parts and assembled at the SAME time, but why couldn't that have been post war?

Why would the company not have just had a gold wreath silver (color) plated if they had those available?

[Rob E.]

This movie is awesome.

Edit: But back to the item in question, I don't like it and I would not pay money for it. If it was in my possession, I wouldn't be able to sleep soundly at night. If someone gave it to me for free, I'd attempt (probably with little success) to sell it.

Your mileage may vary.

[Allan P.]

Leaving the wreath aside for one moment.

Assuming the DK was made in the TR period is there any way an opinion can be given to suggest in which year this particular DK was made?

Allan

[Steve P]

My tone I suppose is too sophisticated since I tend to deal with facts, because I am a lawyer. Something seldom seen in the forum. Actually, the wreath is not silver but white gold.

Mate, I must say I haven't found your tone nor attitude toward the discourse here particularly sophisticated...in fact, I would have said it touches on the arrogant and boorish sides. Perhaps it's best to leave our 'wigs and gowns' elsewhere when we undertake to interact here old son...This way we can all enjoy the Forum as equally interested hobbyists. I think you may also find that there are quite a few members of the legal fraternity on the WAF. I must say that for myself I find th opinion offered on the WAF (it must be remembered on the principle of free speech, this is a public forum and not a court of law) on balance extremely well based and provided with equanimity. I mean this to be taken with great sympathy (used in the strictest sense). I do wish you well, and admire the passion behind your position...However, temperance...a seasoned advocate surely understands this...

[javi_e]

This movie is awesome.

Edit: But back to the item in question, I don't like it and I would not pay money for it. If it was in my possession, I wouldn't be able to sleep soundly at night. If someone gave it to me for free, I'd attempt (probably with little success) to sell it.

i agree

[Winston]

I am not into these,but.......if "we know these are Juncker" we talk about origin of the wreath in an industrial company and even if the Fritzes had had a bad day and made a crappy piece,how would that have passed quality control? If this is supposed to be acceptable workmanship authorised by a company,German quality must have been a myth the way I always understood it.

[Steve P]

I am not into these,but.......if "we know these are Juncker" we talk about origin of the wreath in an industrial company and even if the Fritzes had had a bad day and made a crappy piece,how would that have passed quality control? If this is supposed to be acceptable workmanship authorised by a company,German quality must have been a myth the way I always understood it.

Agree Winston...And I think we all know that German workmanship is not really in question!!!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dietrich, what makes you think it was done wartime? I understand you when You say it is original parts and assembled at the SAME time, but why couldn't that have been post war?

As you know there are fakes of German Crosses in cloth on the market. They are not even close and up to about 6 month ago the huge majority of people did not know the inner workings of a cloth version. This particular cross could be a post war production, yes. Under the use of all the original parts, including the correctly stamped out white background and the carton template. In the face of the existing fakes I just found it very unlikely that this was made post war. Especially with that ugly wreath AND as a silver version.

Why would the company not have just had a gold wreath silver (color) plated if they had those available?

I guess if I or we would know that then this discussion would be not necessary. I only know one thing: to assume that we have an explanation for everything is wrong (and so is the sometimes convulsive explanations to come up with one) and some things are just unexplainable right now.

It has beens said several times in this thread that the quality control would not let this one pass and that the Germans would never do such a thing. Well, that is just not right and there are numerous examples of bad workmanship and non-existent quality control. If all would have been like that why were there closings of companies due to abysmal quality?

And just to make it clear: I don't think that this example is a beautiful piece, I don't think that it has a value even close to the regular silver version or that it is even salable at all. I don't think it is "textbook" nor do I think it is the core piece of new scientific revelations. I am only convinced that it was assembled at the same time and that that time was before May 1945. Why with such an ugly wreath I certainly don't know. The non-authorized silver version might be one of the reasons.

And if my esteemed collector friends here think that it is a fake than that opinion is exactly as good as mine. Please understand that! And it is certainly not worth fighting over it.