Cloth German Cross in Silver

[all1knew]

Hello there,

As previously stated, a reproduction wreath placed on an original cloth backing. After better images I still don't like it.

William Kramer

[dc9]

I would agree with the opinions thus far - from the pictures the wreath looks like a cast reproduction of an original. If you are able to peek underneath the wreath, I think you are going to find it is a solid piece.

[Flemming]

That wrath sure looks like a purely cast reproduction to me also.
Pock marksm it shows evedence of filing marks...
I would not buy this cross based on that.

As suggested by others, please try to see if you can get a poto of the backside of the wrath by peeling the cloth aside.

/Flemming

[schönbeck]

couldnt it be a HEAVILY cleaned gold grade, maybe corroded

[byterock]

Thats what I was thinking as it looks like the wreath has been soaked in HCL.

But I do not think this could be so as the cloth is 100% and there is no easy way you could play around with an acid and not get any on the cloth part.

[PAB_Collector]

Cast reproduction wreath.

Poor craftsmanship of this degree? I don't think so...

[Dietrich Maerz]

I had the German Cross in silver here at my home for a close investigation. All parts but the wreath are absolutely normal and exactly how one would like to see it. The wreath is definitely cast from a Juncker type wreath. Two of the four prongs are covered by the thin paper which also covers more than 50% of the reverse of the cross. Even under the microscope there is not trace or anything that would make me think the wreath was changed.
As strange as it sounds and as hard as it might be for some of the "The Germans would never have done this ..." it seems in this case they did. For me the piece was made like it is.

Dietrich

[Gary Symonds]

Cast reproduction wreath.

Poor craftsmanship of this degree? I don't think so...

Mr. PAB:
Do you still believe the silver DK in cloth is a reproduction?

[Don D.]

I had the German Cross in silver here at my home for a close investigation. All parts but the wreath are absolutely normal and exactly how one would like to see it. The wreath is definitely cast from a Juncker type wreath. Two of the four prongs are covered by the thin paper which also covers more than 50% of the reverse of the cross. Even under the microscope there is not trace or anything that would make me think the wreath was changed.
As strange as it sounds and as hard as it might be for some of the "The Germans would never have done this ..." it seems in this case they did. For me the piece was made like it is.

Dietrich

Still makes no sense to me. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Gary Symonds]

Still makes no sense to me. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

Don:
If Dietrich, the man who wrote the book, examines the cross and under a microscope tells us that the wreath is original, as are all of the constituante parts; what is there to "disagree" about? Sometimes "experts" are wrong. Could you and the others been mistaken? I would have assumed that you and the others would have said something to the effect that "you learn something every day".
Am I missing something?

[Don D.]

Sorry but I just cannot see where the factory would cast a wreath fom another wreath and use it to make an award. I would think the factory would have the means to produce the original parts or to procure them.

PS- even people that write books can be wrong sometimes. Ask any one of the authors on this forum.
PPS- I learned that I think even Dietrich can make mistakes IMO.

[Gary Symonds]

Sorry but I just cannot see where the factory would cast a wreath fom another wreath and use it to make an award. I would think the factory would have the means to produce the original parts or to procure them.

PS- even people that write books can be wrong sometimes. Ask any one of the authors on this forum.
PPS- I learned that I think even Dietrich can make mistakes IMO.

Don:
None of us were breathing air and pissing water and working at the factory in the 40s. We have no idea what was going on for them to cast a wreath and install it on a cloth cross. There could have been a shortage of wreaths; who knows? However, the evidence is conclusive that this is an original silver cloth cross, made during the Third Reich. That the Germans would never use a casting, is just another collector myth that bites the dust.
In all good faith, why can't you concede that your prior opinion that this is a reproduction, should be set aside in the face of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Don,

the cloth versions were not made at factories where the wreath was produced. The cloth versions were made at smaller embroidery outfits. They got the metal wreath from somebody just as they got the carton templates.
Also, since the version in question is a silver version, which was - as you know - not officially sanctioned it might have very well been that instead of ordering something in a larger quantity (something which was not sanctioned, by the way), 'they' may have just cast one for that particular customer. But that is the same "believe" and "story telling" as anything else.....

And - by the way - I neither say that this wreath is "original" because that is something I can't say. It is also not a question of me being "wrong" since I did not say that this piece is "original" or a "fake". All I said is that the evidence which can be observed by everybody with two eyes and a brain clearly shows that the wreath was not changed and was - as I said - "the piece was made like it is." I honestly truly believe that this observation can't be portrayed as "right" or "wrong" Only the conclusions might be.

And yes, I can be wrong and I was wrong already and I will be in the future. And I always will say so.

[Don D.]

Don:
None of us were breathing air and pissing water and working at the factory in the 40s. We have no idea what was going on for them to cast a wreath and install it on a cloth cross. There could have been a shortage of wreaths; who knows? However, the evidence is conclusive that this is an original silver cloth cross, made during the Third Reich. That the Germans would never use a casting, is just another collector myth that bites the dust.
In all good faith, why can't you concede that your prior opinion that this is a reproduction, should be set aside in the face of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

If you are happy with it then enjoy it. Its not one I would want. I don't see "overwhelming evdence" just an opinion, like mine is. Neither do I believe in German infallability or else we would be speaking German and collecting Allied junk. If I start to believe that a high award like this can be improvised by the assembler than I would have to open the door for a ton of crappy EKs and spanges.

Enjoy it for what it is, whatever that is.

[Don D.]

Don,

the cloth versions were not made at factories where the wreath was produced. The cloth versions were made at smaller embroidery outfits. They got the metal wreath from somebody just as they got the carton templates.
Also, since the version in question is a silver version, which was - as you know - not officially sanctioned it might have very well been that instead of ordering something in a larger quantity (something which was not sanctioned, by the way), 'they' may have just cast one for that particular customer. But that is the same "believe" and "story telling" as anything else.....

And - by the way - I neither say that this wreath is "original" because that is something I can't say. It is also not a question of me being "wrong" since I did not say that this piece is "original" or a "fake". All I said is that the evidence which can be observed by everybody with two eyes and a brain clearly shows that the wreath was not changed and was - as I said - "the piece was made like it is." I honestly truly believe that this observation can't be portrayed as "right" or "wrong" Only the conclusions might be.

And yes, I can be wrong and I was wrong already and I will be in the future. And I always will say so.

Dietrich, given your low tolerance level for non-textbook RKs I have to say I'm surprised. If this was an RK or Oaks you would have dismissed it instantly. I cannot imagine an assembler as you put it, would risk ther license by doing a nonstandard job with unapproved parts. But as previously pointed out I was not breathing nor pissing when the TR was pumping these out. Nor am I an expert. I guess I'll leave it at "Not for my collection."