800 4 thriller

[Leroy]

"Just a reminder that the very real research it takes to establish these things is an ongoing process. When all is said and done here, we would be well advised to remember, and thank, those who continued to search for the truth, regardless of personal feelings, opinions or beliefs."

Or regardless of what people happen to own.
I agree.

Nice addition, George, with which I would agree, but I think I would (since I wrote the original quote) have phrased it "...regardless of what people happen to own or not own..." as there are so few of these crosses around that most people, including people who regularly comment here about them, have never seen or handled one in person
or had any personal experience in the acquisition of one from a vet (not that I would expect, given their scarcity, that most people would have).
Regards,
Leroy

[George Stimson]

Fair enough. But I wonder why people who have never seen or handled one of these RKs in person, or had any personal experience with them (people such as myself), would offer any comment at all?
I'd like to hear some informative and substantive comments from the people who have handled these pieces. And not just, "I had a dream that they're real," but "They're real because...."

[Jeff V]

What a lame thread. I can only wonder what is the purpose of such a thread. If someone has meaningful information, share it. Otherwise, why not wait until you are ready to share it, or just keep it for yourself. I just don't see what this "dream" business has to do with reality.
best wishes,
jeff

[George Stimson]

lame thread

Really. It's so lame that I'm thinking of putting it out of its misery....

[Leroy]

Fair enough. But I wonder why people who have never seen or handled one of these RKs in person, or had any personal experience with them (people such as myself), would offer any comment at all?
I'd like to hear some informative and substantive comments from the people who have handled these pieces. And not just, "I had a dream that they're real," but "They're real because...."

Let's see what can be said that is ALREADY agreed upon:
1. These have been obtained from U.S. combat vets (including vets who
were in the vicinity of both Ludenscheid and Klessheim in April/May
1945). U.S. troops were first into Ludenscheid, replaced a few weeks
later by British troops when the area was placed under British control;
2. Their quality is outstanding, certainly the full equivalent of the 935-4's;
3. They are made of silver and iron, and marked with the PKZ number ("4")
assigned to S&L. The "4" stamp is the same identical stamp used on the
935-4's. The "4" mark has NEVER been found on RK's agreed to have
been made by S&L postwar. 800 was the standard silver content of
RK's.
4. 935-4 crosses were found at Klessheim;
5. The use on RK's of the assigned PKZ number of the manufacturer
was made mandatory by the end of the first quarter of 1944 (some
argue it was earlier, but the end of the first quarter of 1944 is agreed
upon as the "late date");
6. The mark "4" has never been found on a cross with the "A" type
frame. S&L either a.) ignored the PKZ mandate (it would have been
the only manufactuer to do so); b.) stopped making crosses after
March, 1944; or c.) remained in the RK manufacture business and,
either before or after March, 1944, began using the "B" type frame, of
which the 800-4 is a prime example;
7. For what it is worth, if anything at all, I have had personal experience
with the 800-4 since 1958, and many other cross types since that
date, and it is my PERSONAL opinion, honestly trying to be objective,
that it is the finest cross I have ever handled. Further, having
handled what I BELIEVE to be all the significant types of RK
manufactured by the S&L firm postwar, none can compare to the
800-4 in quality of manufacture. My cross is not for sale, will not be
for sale until I am dead and gone (if then) and cost me nothing. I
have NO financial interest in this "discussion".

As a final note, no one should be hard on Pieter. I shared with him information I received on the first day of the MAX, in a very positive way, from a respected fellow member of this Forum. Pieter (who has believed in the 800-4 for some time) started this thread in a light-hearted (to me) manner and I did not know about it until after he posted and did not even read the post until I arrived home late Saturday night. I probably should not even have posted in it at all, because all that did was "fan flames" which, quite frankly, was the equivalent of throwing a seal to a killer whale. His beginning post, however,
was taken by me in the spirit in which it was reported to me as being made. It later became, because of other postings, something else entirely. This is why I said what I did in my quote that George used earlier. This IS a serious process
of learning and I think respect should be given to those who pursue truth, without regard to consequences.

This may be a "lame" thread to some, and if George or someone else thinks so and wants to shut it down, go right ahead. When I compare it to others recently seen here, some of which are still running, it seems pretty harmless to me....

[George Stimson]

Leroy, your thoughtful, informative, and intelligent post pulled this thread back from the brink. Thank you.

[Leroy]

You are welcome, George.

From my discussions at the MAX, I know the branch of service, date and part of the name of the possible awardee of the 800-4 cross. (I actually was told the entire name, but did not write it down.) I even saw a photo, on computer, of the cross itself, which was a nice and slightly worn 800-4. I was not sworn to secrecy. If I had been, I would have told no one. I have already ordered and received, from Germany, a reference which has photos of the RK winners of this branch, their dates of award, etc., for my own private use. This tells you nothing, of course, because there are many such references available, especially in the German language.

Out of deference to the investigative and confirmation process, and especially to the friend who gave me this information, I will not disclose details here. Something like this deserves to be established in the most convincing and serious way and it is my belief both that it will be AND that the process needs to be pursued privately.

By the way, the scenario posed by Pieter in his "dream sequence" has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the details surrounding this particular possible event.

[Sal Williams]

Leroy, I have no axe to grind either, I believe these 800/4's could be wartime, but it is frustrating to hear there is some evidence but it is being withheld. I understand that perhaps it should be pursued behind the scenes and then all the facts presented as a whole but when Pieter posts a thread like this I then want to see something. IMO it hurts the 800/4 guys because it seems like more bs rather than anything substantial.

[Leroy]

I have been reminded that I omitted an important (but not by itself conclusive) point in Post #50:

Of the few of these crosses which have been found, the majority have been in mint, cased condition. Invariably, the cases are wartime, the ribbons are wartime, the suspension loops are wartime, the cores are wartime, the paint on the cores is a match to the paint used wartime on other S&L crosses, and the frosting is a match to the frosting used on other wartime S&L crosses.

[Ludwig]

Let's see what can be said that is ALREADY agreed upon:
1. These have been obtained from U.S. combat vets (including vets who
were in the vicinity of both Ludenscheid and Klessheim in April/May
1945). U.S. troops were first into Ludenscheid, replaced a few weeks
later by British troops when the area was placed under British control;
2. Their quality is outstanding, certainly the full equivalent of the 935-4's;
3. They are made of silver and iron, and marked with the PKZ number ("4")
assigned to S&L. The "4" stamp is the same identical stamp used on the
935-4's. The "4" mark has NEVER been found on RK's agreed to have
been made by S&L postwar. 800 was the standard silver content of
RK's.
4. 935-4 crosses were found at Klessheim;
5. The use on RK's of the assigned PKZ number of the manufacturer
was made mandatory by the end of the first quarter of 1944 (some
argue it was earlier, but the end of the first quarter of 1944 is agreed
upon as the "late date");
6. The mark "4" has never been found on a cross with the "A" type
frame. S&L either a.) ignored the PKZ mandate (it would have been
the only manufactuer to do so); b.) stopped making crosses after
March, 1944; or c.) remained in the RK manufacture business and,
either before or after March, 1944, began using the "B" type frame, of
which the 800-4 is a prime example;
7. For what it is worth, if anything at all, I have had personal experience
with the 800-4 since 1958, and many other cross types since that
date, and it is my PERSONAL opinion, honestly trying to be objective,
that it is the finest cross I have ever handled. Further, having
handled what I BELIEVE to be all the significant types of RK
manufactured by the S&L firm postwar, none can compare to the
800-4 in quality of manufacture. My cross is not for sale, will not be
for sale until I am dead and gone (if then) and cost me nothing. I
have NO financial interest in this "discussion".

As a final note, no one should be hard on Pieter. I shared with him information I received on the first day of the MAX, in a very positive way, from a respected fellow member of this Forum. Pieter (who has believed in the 800-4 for some time) started this thread in a light-hearted (to me) manner and I did not know about it until after he posted and did not even read the post until I arrived home late Saturday night. I probably should not even have posted in it at all, because all that did was "fan flames" which, quite frankly, was the equivalent of throwing a seal to a killer whale. His beginning post, however,
was taken by me in the spirit in which it was reported to me as being made. It later became, because of other postings, something else entirely. This is why I said what I did in my quote that George used earlier. This IS a serious process
of learning and I think respect should be given to those who pursue truth, without regard to consequences.

This may be a "lame" thread to some, and if George or someone else thinks so and wants to shut it down, go right ahead. When I compare it to others recently seen here, some of which are still running, it seems pretty harmless to me....

Well spoken, Leroy!

[michael leone]

800 4 knights cross

my question is did the cross seen at the max two tables from skipper greenwades tables which was being discussed early on in the thread sell ?

[michael leone]

800 4 knights cross

well did it? anyone?

[ejwahl1]

Michael,

I'm not sure of the location you make reference to, but the 800-4 RK that was mentioned earlier in this thread (and that seen by Dietrich, Leroy, Myself and others) was sold on Saturday.

Regards,

Ed

Correction: The RK was sold on Friday

[Sal Williams]

do you know for how much?

[VIPER]

It would seem that "a conspiracy of silence speaks louder than words."