Dotted DKiG Authentic or post war copies

[Leroy]

Eric,
I think your post is well thought-out and your experience in comparing the types is very, very helpful to those who have not had a chance to do so!
MANY years ago, I purchased a dotted DKiG from a person who told me he was a vet and that he had brought the cross back. I sold it later as I already had mint DK's in my collection. I always thought (and still think) it was real and thought the person who sold it to me was honest. I have not bought or seen one since from a vet and I still have my "ordinary" types. To me, it was nothing special, just a bit different.
In my opinion, the idea that companies IMMEDIATELY went back into new production postwar to supply souvenirs to soldiers is a myth, although most assuredly companies (and their employees on the side) happily sold leftover completed stock and even completed assembly of pieces from already-existing leftover parts. While by the early to mid 50's, some companies WERE cranking it up again, I don't believe Zimmermann ever did this and I have not ever heard of ANY postwar Nazi production by that firm. IF the dotted DKiG is a fake (and I don't know for sure either way) it would be a fake put together by someone else for sale to GI's several years after the war was over. It is my OPINION that these pieces are just variants made during the war. This may be dead wrong, but that makes more sense to me than the idea of Zimmermann creating new dies postwar to replace those lost to bombing.
Regards,
Leroy

[dc9]

Regarding the MM stampings; I hadn't given it much thought, as I had always presumed and accepted the fact that badge makers would have multiple sets of individual numeral die stamps (or it might be multiple sets of MM "20" stamps). Depending on the manufacturing setup, if there are multiple persons assembling badges at individual workstations, each person might have their own individual MM stamp, and stamp the pin prior to assembly. If the badges are assembled first and then later stamped by a person or persons after a quality inspection, those folks too might have multiple MM stamps -- they might have different size stamps for the different size pieces being produced (i.e. smaller stamp for a more delicate piece.) I think this notion is generally accepted.

When it comes to the dotted dates, it is interesting to note that an apparent majority of them have the same "half stamp." I originally thought, "OK, someone struck the piece at an oblique angle." Then, I did a quick inspection of my Zimmermann pieces and noticed that 4 out of 4 have, what I would consider, different "20" maker marks - that is from 4 different die stamps. (None have the "long-legged 2.") I think it is too coincidental that the majority of dotted date pieces have this same "defective" stamp. By defective, I am assuming that, in fact, the MM stamp is broken; the upper part of the numerals have been cleaved off the face of the stamp. Why would any prestigious firm, such as Zimmermann, use a broken MM stamp if they have others lying around? Doesn't make sense to me. Here is where I would lean towards Leroy's suggestion that there was one source, after the war, producing the dotted DKiGs. Someone, or some group who acquired leftover pieces (including leftover pins that may have been stamped during an "assembly line" process), partially assembled pieces, salvaged dies, etc., then remanufactured the missing dies to continue creating these beautiful works of art.

I want to RE-EMPHASIZE at this point, that my entire line of reasoning presumes the wreath and star dies were destroyed in the February bombing of Pforzheim.

Because, like Leroy, I certainly believe it is possible that Zimmermann could have had a second die on hand or a second one made up during the war. I believe it is generally accepted that award and medal designs changed during the course of their manufacture. Maybe Johann dropped the primary die on the way to the press one day and fractured the hardened surface, maybe the dies were misaligned in the press on a day's first striking and they got crunched, maybe someone in the art department decided they needed to differentiate Zimmermann pieces from Otto Klein pieces and make the date the differentiator, maybe, rather than supply piece parts, Zimmermann sold Otto Klein their original set of tooling, maybe someone got annoyed with that little die flaw in the star -- it's anyone's guess as to why a second set of dies could have existed.

The question that comes to mind with this thinking is: why hasn't a dotted DKiS emerged? Which, I understand, could easily be answered by the 25:1 ratio of awarded DKiGs to DKiSs, suggesting that enough stock of DKiSs could have existed at the time the new dies were made (so, now we could probably approximate a timeline as to when the dies were made and then extrapolate how many dotted DKiGs should exist...but, hey, I don't know enough details to make the educated guess here and my brain already hurts.)

The other key question is the reminder Robert Pierce gave us at the beginning of the thread with the SEM analysis. While the sample population is too small to be statistically significant, where I pay attention is with the complete non-existence of elements between comparisons. For example, the "Dots silver disc" shows 1.8% Mercury! Now, I know Mercury was used in the fire-gilding process, and maybe this sample was contaminated, but, wow, that is a pretty big difference. Or, maybe this was a new coating introduced when Zimmermann switched to the ferrous center plate (do we know whether either of the samples in the SEM analysis had the ferrous center plate?) The composition of the enamel is entirely different - the "Dots enamel" again has Mercury, and also Iron suggesting that the Dotted sample could have the ferrous center plate, or that the enamel was just a different formula. It would be great to see the results of a larger sample population.

Lots and lots of questions. Fun conjecture. This is the reason I joined the Forum.


Eric

[dc9]

Here is a quick comparison of some of my Zimmermann MMs:

[dc9]

DK MMs

[dc9]

Wrong Label

Whoops, sorry guys. Label on the first picture is obviously not the screwback. My Zimmermann screwback is just a MM L/52.

[Jeff V]

Eric,
I think your post is well thought-out and your experience in comparing the types is very, very helpful to those who have not had a chance to do so!
MANY years ago, I purchased a dotted DKiG from a person who told me he was a vet and that he had brought the cross back. I sold it later as I already had mint DK's in my collection. I always thought (and still think) it was real and thought the person who sold it to me was honest. I have not bought or seen one since from a vet and I still have my "ordinary" types. To me, it was nothing special, just a bit different.
In my opinion, the idea that companies IMMEDIATELY went back into new production postwar to supply souvenirs to soldiers is a myth, although most assuredly companies (and their employees on the side) happily sold leftover completed stock and even completed assembly of pieces from already-existing leftover parts. While by the early to mid 50's, some companies WERE cranking it up again, I don't believe Zimmermann ever did this and I have not ever heard of ANY postwar Nazi production by that firm. IF the dotted DKiG is a fake (and I don't know for sure either way) it would be a fake put together by someone else for sale to GI's several years after the war was over. It is my OPINION that these pieces are just variants made during the war. This may be dead wrong, but that makes more sense to me than the idea of Zimmermann creating new dies postwar to replace those lost to bombing.
Regards,
Leroy

I agree completely with Leroy's thoughts on this matter. This collector myth that has appeared relatively recently that these companies just continued producing awards after the end of the war is false IMO. I recently was able to look at some lists that a very long time collector dating back to the mid 50s had. In this time awards had very little value and the current way of pricing the based on rarity and desireability had not been developed yet. For instance, a pair of wehrmacht boots cost the same as a Knights cross of the war merit cross at around 23 dollars. A knights cross with oakleaves was 10 dollars more.
best wishes,
jeff

[Dietrich Maerz]

It is my OPINION that these pieces are just variants made during the war. This may be dead wrong, but that makes more sense to me than the idea of Zimmermann creating new dies postwar to replace those lost to bombing.

Just to mention it (maybe again). None of the collectors in Germany ever heard of the dotted cross till some short time ago ... Never mentioned in any publication, magazine, book ,...

And just because it has a (half) 20 stamp doesn't mean it was made by Zimmermann. For sure not after the war!

[Leroy]

Just to mention it (maybe again). None of the collectors in Germany ever heard of the dotted cross till some short time ago ... Never mentioned in any publication, magazine, book ,...

And just because it has a (half) 20 stamp doesn't mean it was made by Zimmermann. For sure not after the war!

1.) I don't think Zimmermann made anything of a Nazi nature after the war. In fact, I'm not sure they made anything at all after the war.

2.) Again, I don't KNOW that these are real. But, IF they are, they are just a variant. The only experience I have had is that one instance where the guy SAID he brought it back. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I certainly wouldn't stake my life on it (as I WOULD with the 800-4 S&L RK). I had never met the guy before, or seen him since, so can't vouch for him at all.

3.) To me, it makes no difference, nor does it have any weight one way or the other, whether a German collector saw, heard, believed, knew, etc. etc. ANYTHING. I've met plenty of German collectors (and Russian, and English, and French, etc., etc.) and am convinced that no collecting group, anywhere, has any greater claim on actual knowledge than any other. There are smart people everywhere, dumb people everywhere, knowledgeable people everywhere, and collecting illiterates everywhere. The stupidity and bad attitudes we have all come to love are every bit as rampant on European-based forums (including German) as on US-based forums. This doesn't effect the POSSIBLE originality of these pieces at all.

Isn't this fun?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Gentry,

I don't think it can be named a variant. Variant means it is part of a larger group and varies only in a minor area. That is not the case here. At least the star plate and the wreath are completely different than Zimmermann. The gilding is different and so it the enamel composition. Whats left? Not much!

Maybe you misunderstood me? () With "none of the collectors in Germany" I didn't want to praise any perceived superior intelligence or something like that. Far from it. What I meant is that the typical (older) German collector got most of its collection from German veterans (and for me - excuse my old fashion way - this is the first level of veterans regarding WW2 items of the Third Reich) and none of these collectors (and a lot don't use the internet) have never ever seen or heard of the "dotted" cross. For me that means simply they didn't encounter one in connection with a genuine German veteran. And that bears heavy on (my) judgement!

[Robert H]

Dietrich I agree, first time I heard about em was in the US.

[Leroy]

What I meant is that the typical (older) German collector got most of its collection from German veterans (and for me - excuse my old fashion way - this is the first level of veterans regarding WW2 items of the Third Reich) and none of these collectors (and a lot don't use the internet) have never ever seen or heard of the "dotted" cross. For me that means simply they didn't encounter one in connection with a genuine German veteran. And that bears heavy on (my) judgement!

Dietrich,
No offense taken or meant. Remember, too, that most older US collectors got their collections directly from verifiable US vets, which to me is just as good any day as a German collector getting something from a German vet. There are lying US vets, just as I am sure many a German vet has sold "his" medals 3 or 4times, too! It pays to know the real history of the person you deal with. I personally would be very skeptical of anything unusual or "pretty" that came from a German vet, only because I know (and so do you) that so many lost what they originally had to captivity and combat.
I want to make it clear that I do NOT swear by the one I got from a fellow who said he was a vet. I didn't know him before the buy, nor did I know anybody who did know him (unlike most of my buys many years ago in my relatively small community). He just answered one of my ads and met me at a store that was a convenient landmark. He claimed to be a vet, and sounded convincing, but I've no way of verifying this and I didn't spend much time with him at all. Maybe even the one I had was not a true "dotted" cross, but simply a real cross that someone had played with, which just looked like the ones we are discussing now. I wish I had taken photos just so I could compare them in detail.
The fact that no Germans have seen this pattern, COMBINED WITH the reports of others that they have only shown up here in the US, IS disturbing and casts a pall over these pieces. I am, still, though, puzzled. If they are simply "made up" pieces, someone did a damn fine job (better than on the Rounder!). There is enough doubt in my mind now that I would not buy another without a LOT more knowledge and history. So...I am joining the group that simply does not know, one way or the other. I am not approving or disapproving.
Best,
Leroy

[Dietrich Maerz]

So...I am joining the group that simply does not know, one way or the other. I am not approving or disapproving.

And that is also the group I am in. I am simply reporting. If I would know, I would say so. Since I don't I don't!

[Leroy]

Interesting vote tally (so far). 50% "don't know" , 26% say real and 24% say fake.

It sure would be nice if something definitive came along!

[JustinG]

I do remember that Detlev Niemann sold a dotted DKiG within the last 6 months; (take what you want from that)
He is a seller who I respect personally.
This is a really interesting response from members. Quite a heated debate.
Always a good thing as I am learning so much.


Regards,
JustinG

[Douglas 5]

I will add something interesting regarding die manufacturing . Not related to this type of award but I would say gives an insight into die production and set up time . In a report releast October 43 by LDO (Vorsitz) Willy Tornow -( chaiman or president - not sure) it took the Gablonz Award Co-op 3 months from start to finish just to produce necessary dies , tooling and trails for the coil-frame stamping and fusion , - to be able to start production of EK frames . After approval - June to September of 43 - under pressure of great urgentcy this was done . Conditions , war period, supplies, and time of year were much more favourble than from Feb 8th 45 on .... those 6 weeks . Zimmermann producing two hardened dies from scatch ,,..... I can't see this being achivable or possible . Food for thought .

Douglas