Dotted DKiG Authentic or post war copies

[JustinG]

Lots of differences of opinions on these pieces. What about you; do you believe?
Regards,
JustinG

[Robert P.]

Let this data help us in our decision making...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ht=dotted+DKiG

[Douglas 5]

The data from the SEM is very interesting . The DK awards themselves I know very little about . How ever I could not help noticing the maker marks themselfs ! I did pull them out and made a comparison . A different approach that might help out here .
A fake award will have a fake maker mark ...... IMO I see a match here , .. what is the concensus ???

Douglas

[Douglas 5]

Pic 2 :

[Douglas 5]

Pic 3

[streptile]

I think the only two major opinions under consideration are 1) that Zimmerman produced this award before 1945, or 2) that Zimmerman produced it after 1945. In both these cases the marks would be by Zimmerman. As far as I know, only the wreath and the stamp are different from proven wartime originals. Or am I missing something? Is there some idea that this could have been produced postwar by someone other than Zimmerman?

[Douglas 5]

Well the 2 EKs are post war made crosses with post war maker marks . To me they match the DK maker marks . That would make the dotted DKs post war made - with or without original parts - with post war maker marks .

Douglas

[magnusmilitaria]

If the cross its good,its posible for late war production.Thiss MM stamp can be so useed or broked that upper piece fall off the stamp !?

[streptile]

Well the 2 EKs are post war made crosses with post war maker marks . To me they match the DK maker marks . That would make the dotted DKs post war made - with or without original parts - with post war maker marks .

Douglas

Got it. Excuse me, I'm tired.

[Dietrich Maerz]

As far as I know, only the wreath and the stamp are different from proven wartime originals. Or am I missing something?

The backplate is also different.

The question really is: why would Zimmermann produce new dies for the wreath, the star plate and the backplate (and the stamp)? The original tools were perfectly ok as wittnessed by the late models. So - one could argue - the dies were destroyed.
Pforzheim was attacked by bombers on 25. February and 80% of the town was destroyed. The production of orders and medals was halted on 18. April 45 but Pforzheim was occupied by American forces on 9. April. Six weeks to produce the tools for the 'dotted' cross? None in Klessheim. None made by Klein, who used the parts from Zimmermann.

That is what one needs to know and consider. I don't know whether they are good or bad, but one has to consider all facts.

Dietrich

[Douglas 5]

The answer lies in interpriting the maker mark . We have 2 fake EK1s with fake maker marks . To me these match the ones on the DK .
Zimmermann would not use - 2 - fake maker mark on their own DKs . To me these were produced by some one else using 'some' originals dies that survived the bombing ! The other senario could be that the " 20" was added much later to enhance value .

Douglas

[Gary B]

Hi,

Dietrich has given a good summary of the issue in his above response. For a more detailed, and IMO, very well balanced answer to this question, I would encourage all to read the section devoted to the dotted DK in his excellent reference book on the German Cross. It might not sway you one way or the other but the logical presentation of all the facts and the differing view points the facts support make for an interesting read.

I for one like the dotted DK but will only obtain one after I have purchased other more "accepted versions".

Gary B

[checkit]

I had one I got from the vet's niece (He was an MP in the 44th Division). Mint, cased, still had the cellophane wrapping. Obviously late war as it had never been issued. All of the medals he had were mint and either unmarked or marked "20". The vet might have hung around for a few years after the war, but the large grouping of items he brought home all looked 100% good.

I have never gotten more hell in my life than when I posted this DKIG on the forum. For some reason, because I made a bid on the items instead of buying them clandestinely, it was considered to be a tainted deal. I posted the SS skull and other items for opinion, and there was no problem. And some lucky guy got a uniform removed DKIG in cloth that she found later.

[dc9]

I thoroughly enjoyed reading Dietrich Maerz's The German Cross book cover-to-cover. In reading the section on manufacturing techniques and comparing that to the facts presented in the section "The "dotted" Zimmermann..." the immediate question I had was "how long would it have taken to manufacture/replace WWII-era dies?"

Having been in the injection molded plastics business in a past life, I know that even using today's modern CNC machining capabilities, it still takes (at a minimum) weeks to get a die/mold made from an outside contractor. The die for the wreath alone is very intricate and requires two mating pieces to be constructed. I assume, at the time, they were hand-engraved. The die would be designed on paper, drafted, engraved/cut/machined, test stampings would be made, along with associated changes to the dies, then after everything was signed off as "quality" the dies would be hardened and shipped back to Zimmermann. Assuming Zimmermann contracted dies from a 3rd party, the process from issuing a purchase order/contract to stamping first parts, especially in a wartime environment complete with material shortages, labor shortages and delivery problems, I've got to think would take at least a month, probably more. Maybe Zimmermann had the expertise in-house and they could do work round the clock to get it done. Who knows?

Either way, it just doesn't seem plausible to me that if the dies for the wreath and the star plate were destroyed -- with the factory taking a direct hit -- that Zimmermann was up and running producing DKs before April 9th (5 weeks later when Pforzheim was occupied by American forces.) 80% of the town is destroyed, including 2 key dies sitting in the depths of bombed out shop; and the Zimmermann workers are going to rally around clearing the rubble and getting back to work? I would assume there are more important things to do; like defending your city from invaders and caring for the survivors. I wish there was a witness, or shop worker from whom we could get a better account of what happened during this tumultuous time.

What seems more plausible to me is what has been well documented* with the occupying forces in post-war Germany; whereby the conquering Allied armies enter a town, quickly establish a government, supply lines, restore utilities and set to work rebuilding an economy. Whether it was a heavy industry like Volkswagen Werks, where workers retrieved machinery and materials hidden in caves to commence building necessary means of transportation (and in the process, creating a legacy) or quite possibly Zimmermann rebuilding their manufacturing capabilities to provide Allied soldiers with phenomenal souvenirs. If we assume the wreath and the star plate are different on the "dotted" DKs because the dies were destroyed in the bombing of Pforzheim, then I believe a reasonable explanation is that those DKs are post-war manufactured and assembled.

I had the chance to compare a dotted date Zimmermann versus my non-dotted date; the evidence of manufacturing and assembly looks identical. I compared my "Light" DKiS to a dotted DKiG and it was incredible. Except for the wreath and the star the parts appeared identical -- perfect matches. The MM stamp was the 1/2 stamp version on the DKiG, and unfortunately, I did not photograph the specific shape of the numeral "2." The assembly was identical - right down to the 12 o'clock rivet being peened just over the edge of the perfectly soldered hinge plate. The weight was within 1 gram. The patina was similar. All of this suggests to me that the same highly experienced workers at the Zimmermann shop assembled both pieces. Whether they were assembled pre-April 9/April 18/May 9, 1945 rests in my mind as to when these new dies came into being. Given the very reasonable suggestion Dietrich has made; I believe "dotted" date wreaths are post-War.

I didn't think I would be writing a book on my thoughts, but one final item I wanted to mention:

Maybe I missed the parallel thread, but, did anyone take note that a dotted DKiG just sold on eStand for $2,000? I hesitate to post the link, as I would like to protect the seller while he completes his business. But, maybe someone out there holds the missing link as to this "variant." I have saved off the photos for my future reference.


Eric


* I found two books particularly interesting: From the Ruins of the Reich Germany 1945-1949 by Douglas Botting and Small Wonder The Amazing Story of Volkswagen by Walter Henry Nelson

[Douglas 5]

Quit interesting Eric . May I ask what you thing about the maker mark posted above . Speaking of the '2' .. the 2 in the dotted DKs is different from other war time DKs , shorter and a longer foot on the 2 .

Douglas