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**Dietrich Maerz** · 01-10-2011, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by Ojoneso View Post

.. and i have never seen one is dotted.

That is not an argument. There are thousands of things you have not seen and they still exist.
At this point in time it is just completely against the evidence to say that the dotted Zimmermann is post war.

**Ojoneso** · 01-10-2011, 08:40 AM

Hello dietrich,

yes that is correct your zitat --from me-- sure this is not a argument.

And i had never say/write the dotted is post war.
I had only questions about this.

My full post was :

Or give it late 134 dkis/dkig without ;

11clock , flaw in the 9

and i have never seen one is dotted.

i thing 134 get the Items from 20.
the dotted dk ist without the 11 clock and the flaw in wreath

and you can see the dotted incl. the 11 flaw.

But the 134 had get from 20 and you can only see the "normal" Dk

and the good point is that the manufaktur from 20 was bombing.
That the 20 had make a new Tool. for the Star AND the wreath

But IMO had get the 134 the Items from 20 to the end of the WAR(or end from original production)
That you can the on the flaw from the wreath at 3 clock.

This flaw is only(IMO) at the latest Dks

best rg
Sebastian

**Dietrich Maerz** · 01-10-2011, 09:38 AM

The dotted cross was evidently in Klessheim. Also, there is at least one dotted cross with the 11 o'clock flaw in the starburst plate. I think this is evidence enough.

Dietrich

**Ojoneso** · 01-10-2011, 10:19 AM

hello ,

yes that is.

But only the one had the 11 c. flaw?
or did you mine a typ of the last cross what have the 11 c.f.?

that were better for understand all have this

(The 11 c.flaw)

but the Dks without the 11 c.flaw is simlar to the ohter one.
The star is free from all flaws and looks brand new.

is the cross incl. the 11 c.flaw that from the Klessheim?

best rg
Sepp

**Dietrich Maerz** · 01-14-2011, 01:17 PM

In a small european forum this was recently posted in response to the article about the dotted German Cross in the last magazine of the International Medal Collector:

"I recently saw the results of the article in International Medal Collector magazine about the dotted piece. With all the hoopla, I was expecting real evidence for the wartime claim of the dotted DKiG. While I think that Dietrich has certainly had some great books that are very well done, this "evidence" is a far cry from what anyone in science would call evidence at all. I must say that I was a little disappointed, given all the crowing from the dotted DKiG advocates.
I personally will stick with the forensic evidence, which would suggest that the piece is not wartime. However, people can choose what they prefer to believe. I am a little shocked at what is now considered "proof" as it would be considered conjecture in any scientific endeavor. "

I certainly do agree that it would be completely un-scientific to pronounce any piece as pre- May 1945 "just" based on a veteran buy. This applies to this piece - the dotted DK - as well as to the 800-4 by S&L (another hoard find article in the same magazine issue).

I certainly hope the disappointment goes away when the poster might learn that this is just the last (and confirming) evidence in a long chain of diligent research and of puzzling pieces together. In issue no. 2 of the magazine a two paged article was featured, showing one dotted cross with a starburst plate with the usual 11 o'clock flaw and the "normal" "20" stamp on the pin. Also, another cross with the regular stamp showed up. So, even before the hoard find, the evidence before the collector "court" was this:

Untouched Zimmermann with 11 o'clock flaw and correct "20" stamp but with the dotted wreath. Another one with a correct "20". Both crosses in worn condition.

Not to mention the veteran buys which were already known before. All this, including the dotted cross in cellophane, must now be set against the ONE test of ONE dotted cross with a lower gold content of the wreath (evidence I duly noted in my book) and the opinion that they are bad.

All I can do (or any serious researcher) is to present the evidence and draw my own conclusion from it. If - in the light of what is currently known - the lower gold content is more convincing than the several crosses with genuine parts - well, so be it. But what I presented is neither un-scientific nor sloppy - it is plain good old facts.

There are numerous examples on small fora where far less evidence (a bent pin, a scratch on a badge or even just the opinion of the "man") is taken or has to be taken as unshakeable evidence for what is the party line of the forum. This is not the case here. I personally think that the evidence presented is solid and can't be explained away by just one SEM test of one pice.

The same - by the way - is true for the 800-4. It is NOT the Klessheim find which makes the cross in my opinion a pre 1945 example by S&L. The find was the LAST evidence needed (for me!) to push my opinion to this side.

And yes, sometimes one needs to correct previous thinking and one also needs to admitt that one had a wrong opinion. I know far too many people, who cannot do that .... Fortunatley one can correct opinions which I did at least in these two cases - it is, however, very hard top correct absolute statements.

Dietrich

Attached Files

Dotted with flaw obverse.jpg (90.7 KB, 547 views)

**Darrell** · 01-19-2011, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

...
And yes, sometimes one needs to correct previous thinking and one also needs to admitt that one had a wrong opinion. I know far too many people, who cannot do that ....

Dietrich

This is the result when a vendetta rules one's motives.

There is and never was any purpose to all the work he did with respect to the Dotted DKig, other than to PROVE they were fake.

He had no desire analyze any data that proved they could be period. That did not matter to him. Anything that did, he put off as insignificant just like the evidence that Dietrich has put forth in the last few months (not just the last issue).

He spent hundreds of dollars on SEM research and wasted pages of threads slamming certain individuals who did not agree with him. Yet not once did his findings PROVE anything, other than to give the pieces more credibility.

Now the tables have turned he looks bad and doesn't like it.

It's sad, but this illustrates precisely why this person is no longer part of this forum.

A few years back Dietrich he was your worst enemy (like mine), then he buried the hatchet when he had a chance to get his name into your RK book .... now I would guess he has left you off his Xmas list because you have discovered evidence that proves these Dotted are real.

A friend ONLY when it suites his motives .....

I am really starting to feel pity for the guy actually.

**Ojoneso** · 01-19-2011, 04:24 PM

Hi ,

sorry my english is really not the best.
And i can't read all .
If i translate by a Software is often not that what you mine!!

But i have a question:

Quote:

""you have discovered evidence that proves these Dotted are real""

I like the discusion about the dott!
I have question and for my self not sure,
to wish time was product this cross.

But Where is the evidence
from what you wrote?

All the Best Sebastian

**Darrell** · 01-19-2011, 04:27 PM

Sebastian, the evidence as posted in Dietrich's statement right above mine ....

If the same evidence, by chance, would have proven the crosses to be fake, he would have endorsed it 1000%, no questions asked. But it went the other way and he cant accept that (obviously) .. did anyone think he would?. You could dig up a German Serviceman tomorrow with one pinned to his chest and he would claim it was planted 60 years ago.

**Dietrich Maerz** · 01-19-2011, 05:26 PM

Tom was and is always very helpful. He has his opinion and I have mine. There is nothing more we both can do. I will, however, make some remarks:

- there is no way in science that one could dismiss a series of other (pro) findings with one (against) finding. I still would doubt the Rounder paint analysis if there would have been only one cross tested. But there were a total of four! Unless one dismisses the other finding with disbelieve.

- sure, this could be a huge conspiracy, involving a ton of people (including me as was once posted at M C F). A conspiracy which involved making several dotted types (with and without the correct marking, with and without the 11 o'clock flaw, new and worn) and also planting them in several groups (including a Klessheim one. Klessheim is a nice topic: if it testifies what one believes (RK to the KVK for example), it is solid, for the dotted it is not ....). This conspiracy goes on for a long time (ask some old times) and for what? To fool maybe 10 -15 collectors (I have not seen more "dotted")! Collectors who can buy a Zimmermann or Klein every minute of the day - DKs are not rare. But this conspiracy had a hole: the gold content on ONE cross....

- I will not argue, since I can't prove anything 100% positive or negative. All I can do and will continue to do is presenting the honest facts. People who can and do believe that I am not telling lies and do not make anything up just to promote my view points can accept the facts and decide on their own. That is all there is. If it is not prove for someone - well, don't buy it!

This approach worked perfect for me (and for the hobby, I think).

Dietrich

**Darrell** · 01-27-2011, 12:53 PM

This keeps getting bumped up to the top. I guess he keeps logging in under alias's and voting NO

I guess the end vote of a poll deems originality?

**Dietrich Maerz** · 09-13-2011, 06:49 AM

I have closed this thread since it no longer truly reflects the state of the research:

- there are dotted crosses with the full "20"
- there are dotted crosses with the 11 o'clock flaw
- one "dotted" cross was found in a Klessheim group

This is - at least for me - enough evidence that the "dotted" type was made before the war's end.

Dietrich

PS: If someone wants to revive the poll it should be with a new one based on the new research.

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