You are right, Dietrich. I will try to take a better photo.
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Well making a Mr. of me.....that is too much for me Brian sssssssssssstttOriginally posted by Brian S View PostWell Mr. Eric-Jan Bakker, I couldn't tell from the black and white photo.
And since the grins make you so happy,.,
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Glunz material
Gentleman,
It is interesting to read this thread here on WAF, and seeing the believers and non-believers, the one shouting harder than the other.
Often I see groups I don't believe in at all.
I will try to make some things clear here.
English isn't my mother's tongue, and I know that I will many mistakes in it.
Together with Martin I wrote the Gluzn article for the OdR magazine, and the photos in it are from my collection, as are the ones showed by Martin in this thread, the signed photos and the b/w with his FW190, #6, #8, #14.
I knew Addi and his wife Iris for many years and did have a fine contact with them.
Visited Addi a couple of times at his home.
During my first visit Addi signed some photos of his awards and gave them to me, some of those photos are shown here by Martin.
His wartime material was sold to a german dealer, but - and this is perhaps the most important part of the story - Addi wanted to have something as a rememberance to what he ones earned during the war as a fighter pilot and still kept after the war.
So all his awards were photographed with a red background, Wehrpaß and Flugbuch were serox photocopied, and many photos he liked were reproduced.
I know that when you look at the material that will be up for auction, that it isn't that much and that it can be put together very easily, but one must know that there is a lot of material missing here !
What was sold to the dealer was: the material show on the auction photo, further on: Ehrenpokal, Wehrpaß, 2 Flugbücher, NSFK Ausweis with uniform photo, award documents, letters, congratulation letters and telegrams, photo-album with pre war / war time and from his post war time photos in it.
So the group was much larger !
Addi phoned me just before he and Iris were moving to another home, and he told me that some material surfaced from boxes, cupboards, chest of drawers, etc.
So I went to his home and what he showed me were: his named Netzkopfhaube, Dreieckrechner, Flugzeugführer Abz.i.Stoff, some other cloth uniform items, newspaperclippings, Brüsseler Zeitung he was in, Der Adler magazines he was in, box with photos, material from his time as a Rennfahrer in the 50ties such as race car trophies and prices.....and a used and worn L.12 RK with a juweller or perhaps workshop made EL.
Addi told me that he did sent his awarded RK to his father for safe keeping and that he did the same with his EL, so that is the reason why they are in a nearly mint condition.
The set he was wearing during the war was a replacement set and that set is the one shown on the b/w photo where he is wearing a Schirmmütze and a leather coat.
Well I do still have some Addi material in my collection, the one who bought the entire above mentioned group from the dealer wasn't interested in the Flugbuch, and I was very happy being able to buy such a fantastic historical document.
From Addi: his Flugzeugführer Abz.i.Stoff, some other cloth uniform items, Der Adler magazines, Brüsseler Zeitung, wartime and postwar photos, signed repros, newspaperclippings and books from his own small library.
Later his NSFK / Luftwaffe pilot training flightbook was for sale at Hüsken so I bought that one too.
I would love to buy the material that will be up for auction, but the sad thing is that I don't have the money for it.
I don't care what others say about the material......for me the material is the original material from Addi.
yours friendly
Eric-Jan
Addi may you rest in peace.Comment
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Here. You judge. Worse than the 800-4 or 935-4, better than some I have seen. "Average" to me, but you are right and that was too casual a statement. I shall refrain in the future!Originally posted by Leroy View PostComment
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What a funny guy he is first copying the photos shown by Martin and saying " Are those the rank tabs of an Oberleutnant ?Originally posted by Brian S View Post
In his rk/oaks photo. Bottom of the photo is a little blurry... " and now asking me if I am OK now, while he is now talking about another photo.
ANYWAY THE WIND WILL BLOW !!!!!!!!!!!Comment
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Assuming this is all true, and I don't want to be expelled by Mr. Eric-Jan for suggesting otherwise, this is a very important cross in the timeline of the S&L die failure.Comment
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Eric,
you are convinced that the pristine, unworn cross shown here with the oaks is the cross he was awarded in August 1943? And when -to your opinion - came this 'used and worn" L/12 in his possession?
DietrichComment
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Eric, as you may find or have already done so...this is a tough crowd!
It really would be (logical) that he was awarded an L/12 and was given a set of non-standard Oaks, maybe by his group, which was hand-made and therafter, sent some pristine items home for safe keeping!Regards,
DaveComment
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Hi Dietrich and Dave, and ofcourse others as well,
Am not a RK and EL expert, my area and collecting field are documents such as Solbücher, Wehrpäße, Award docs. etc.
Well what I wrote concerning the Glunz material is the truth, what I saw at Addi's home with my own eyes and what Addi told to me himself.
Nothing more nothing less.
We have to do with the story and the photos, Addi is no longer with us.
Martin showed my photos (sent photos to him to make a choise for the OdR magazine article) of the awarded RK and EL and the set he was wearing during the war.
There aren't any better or sharper photos.
Dietrich, Addi told me that he did sent the original awarded RK and EL to his father for safe keeping, and I really don't know how long it took Addi to lay his hands on a replacement RK first and on a replacement EL later.
Not a date of being awarded the RK and EL for the set shown on the colour photo with the red background was mentioned.
I received this part of the auction information from another waf member (shortly after placing my reply here on waf) who did have a look on the Hermann Historica site:
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Schriftliche Erklärung aus dem Jahre 1992 mit Farbfotos aller Stücke, jeweils von Glunz unterschrieben, teil mit zusätzlichen Ausführungen.[/FONT]
"Das auf dem Photo abgebildete Ritterkreuz mit Eichenlaub ist die Auszeichnung welche Adolf Hitler am 3.8.44 mir persönlich überreichte. Dieses Verleihungsstück übergab ich meinen Vater zur Aufbewahrung, wo es den Krieg über blieb."
Dietrich I have really no idea if he received a complete new RK and EL set that day on 3.8.44, so to say again a new RK, and I don't know if that was common and happened more often.
Maybe of interest or not ? but I only saw the L/12 mark on that RK and no 800 mark, the EL didn't have any markings at all.
But the EL was the same one as shown on the Schirmmütze/leather coat photo, and to me that one doesn't look like an official one.
Yes Dave I clearly understand that it is a though crowd here, but reading the comments on the Glunz material I thought that it could help to shine some light on it by telling the story and to show that the original group was much larger.
To bring a hornet's nest to my ears again next time here on WAF.... I don't think so......maybe better to keep such stories for myself.
yours friendly
Eric-JanComment
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Dies ?
Gentlemen...not wishing to derail the thread, but I'd like to give a little pointer that perhaps is being missed.
Die #1...the forming die
Die #2...the cutting/finishing die
(at least two operations)
So, in which die was the dent row introduced ?...if the later, then the dent row and other flaws might not match depending when the second operation was performed after the first (?)
Think about it
Chris
(looking for early K & Q RK)Comment
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5 o'clock in the morning here, time to get some sleep !
End of the Glunz material history story for now.
yours friendly
Eric-JanComment
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Glunz's RK 3 o'clock arm lower corner seems to show a more advanced pattern of flaws on the front frame or is it just an accumulation of the "painted" frosting ?
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RobertComment
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Just my personal opinion.
I strongly believe, but have no prove at all, that he received the mint KC as an award piece in august 1943 and attached it later on the mint oaks he received in june 1944. But he bought a duplicate KC (L/12) for wear in combat and later the duplicate poor quality oaks. These oaks are so badly detailled that it should be of a jewellery quality...
I also believe he kept the awarded pieces in storage, thats why he send the items to his father after receiving them. The cases for the oaks + KC were also in a pristine condition. Glunz was really proud of his KC/oaks so he took good care of them...Even on postwar ceremonys with his fellow comrades (on OdR / JG 26 meetings) he kept the pristine KC + oaks in their cases in front of him on the table...Eric- Jan can tell more about that !
But its better to base on technical data and observations.
MartinComment
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Chris,
That is a very interesting point and it would be useful to understand the process in greater detail. Can you expand at bit?
Robert T ,
The Glunz cross certainly has something on that lower arm. I perceived those marks to be dents, but since I am jumped on for making too many "assumptions", I would love to know what others see there, especially in light of mdj's comments.
Best to both of you,
LeroyComment
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Not true in the the way you say it. The first operation did form the frame with the beadings, the second one did (maybe, not necessarily) cut out the frame. But we also know that the inner frame edge was hand sawn and filed.Originally posted by Chris Jenkins View PostGentlemen...not wishing to derail the thread, but I'd like to give a little pointer that perhaps is being missed.
Die #1...the forming die
Die #2...the cutting/finishing die
(at least two operations)
So, in which die was the dent row introduced ?...if the later, then the dent row and other flaws might not match depending when the second operation was performed after the first (?)
Think about it
For sure there were no two operations stamping the beading and the dent row, which always sits in the same spot anyway.
DietrichComment
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