S&l ??

[Sal Williams]

It sure seems like these boards are not being considered in what they have to offer. In the case of the droop tail SK they offer another tidbit. You have the next of kin case and now this. That alone means very little, but when added to other info that is not discovered yet it could be very meaningful. Why would anyone rush to declare these original based on just these 2 bits of info though? I am also kind of surprised that they are being taken as untouched boards with leftover originals with so little skepticism.

Also Don makes a very good point, if there were so many leftovers, why on earth are they using the rare,improper, "early made" SK in a class that was never issued if they could just reach into the giant barrel of Spanish Crosses?

[Leroy]

All good points.

Why would they use a strange SK? Who knows...they (whoever "they" were)used what they found. Maybe it was mixed in with others, maybe it was the only one of that type left, who knows? Bob Hritz never saw any SK's on the boards he found. Here we have 5, 4 of which (at least from what we can see) match perfectly the standard S&L SK. The CCC's match known CCC's by GWL, S&L and FLL. The RK's match the standard unflawed S&L type "A". The KVK RK's are the silvered zink versions, also by S&L.

Sal is surprised that these boards are being taken as original with so little skepticism. I, on the other hand, am not overly surprised by that, but am surprised that so many "experts" on this Forum in the field of Heer, KM and Luft badges (with, of course, the very notable exception of Tom Durante) have simply remained silent. One would think that, pro or con, we would have seen and heard more from the people who can supposedly look at a badge and identify each and every obscure leaf pattern, dot and flaw. That silence is a total mystery to me. I have personally sent out PM's and e-mails trying to elicit opinion (ANY opinion) without result (again, except for Tom). That is a huge surprise to me and I think actually means something. What it means is a mystery to me.

If nothing else, these boards contribute to our knowledge by showing that our knowledge is incomplete and remains in a state of flux. They are, right now, just another "dot" in what may be, someday, a pattern we can connect and understand.

[Bob Hritz]

I would think unused patterns, mistakes and anomolies would be among the items found in the factory after the war ended. That, to me, is why they were found on the boards; because they were there and available. For whatever reason, they were not used or distributed. Perhaps rejected patterns or factory and/or finish rejects.

Bob hritz

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

I think that many of the more knowledgable Heer, KM & LW guys maybe are not even aware of this thread. I know that I really never look in the Crosses forum, but happened to see the title "S&L" and peeked in, although Leroy did also PM me. Another reason that many are silent is because there is not much in the way of closeups of badges to really make a firm determination one way or the other. I was lucky enough that Dave B took some closeups of the CCCs, it would have been really hard to judge these otherwise.

I just took another look at the Kriegs board and the only thing I can see is the pin on the Minesweeper badge at the bottom looks like a Foester und Barth pin. There is a camera flash there, so its hard to be sure but I would bet that its an F&B. If Dave B or anybody else has any closeups of any of the Kriegs or Heer badges, please post them and I am sure we can identify them. I have my own reference books here that I made with all the Heer, Luft & Kriegs badge identified by maker and variant, so we should be able to identify them easily with even decent pics of the obverses.

Tom

[Peter J.]

Leroy, I take no side in this discussion in regards of possible conclusions, but I have a question about the lack of "new" decorations produced 1945-49.

With the exception of Souval, who apparently was in business as early as at least 1947, do you believe good reproductions were made on any other location than Germany? England is known to be the holy land of fakers, but is it realistic to think they started faking German decorations in let's say 1946? Sorry, two questions

cheers
Peter

[Leroy]

Tom,
You have been a real help in this thread and your insights are very valuable.I hope you are right and that others just didn't know about this or didn't have a chance to seriously look. I did attempt to contact several.
Just a side note: do you have any thoughts on the glider badge or retired pilot (shown pretty well on the "emedals" site)(in the side select options)?
Regards,
Leroy

[Leroy]

Peter,
I honestly don't know about Souval or whether the restrictions imposed in Germany also applied to Austria. So far as I have personally seen, the Souval postwar badges have always been pretty recognizable. I believe Bob Hritz actually spoke with the head of that firm on several occasions and so he might know better.

As to fakes from England, I am totally unaware of any fakes coming from there so early after the war. I just don't think there was that much interest (or need). There was an interesting thread here just recently about the possible use of original 3/4 ring RK's in some English films (including "The One Who Got Away", produced in 1956, released in 1957). So, it just doesn't appear to have been any big deal at the time. Robin would almost certainly know better than I would.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help!
Regards,
Leroy

[Peter J.]

Leroy, you've been more then helpful and I echo your assumption about the lack of early (1946) repros from England. It's getting late over here, but I'll elaborate on this topic tomorrow.

cheers
Peter

[Robin Lumsden]

...............whether the restrictions imposed in Germany also applied to Austria.

They didn't.

[Sal Williams]

I would think unused patterns, mistakes and anomolies would be among the items found in the factory after the war ended. That, to me, is why they were found on the boards; because they were there and available. For whatever reason, they were not used or distributed. Perhaps rejected patterns or factory and/or finish rejects.

Bob hritz

Bob, Do you have no doubts about the SK? If the other boards that you had seen and had had the droop tail on it I would think the case would be much stronger, but this is a lone and very very odd SK in so many ways. For you is it real? I ask this seriously and with respect.
I can picture a more likely scenario as I said earlier of a "better piece being put on to complete the collection and then forgotten about. It is just very odd that there are 5 places for SK (the correct amount for the different grades) and then a gols without swords on there instead of the proper one. I can see someone thinking a gold without swords is better than a bronze without swords and putting it on there.

@ Leroy & others: To show I am not rigid about the droop tail, here is something that has not been mentioned in this thread that has always perplexed me. There are so very many different droop tail fakes that I often wondered how fakers came to decide on a droop tail pattern in the first place. And did all the fakes originate from the same source or did the fakers copy each others droop tail pattern? Why? It does seem odd to choose a droop tail pattern out of the blue. I can not find a good explaination why you would not copy an original, rather than fabricate an eagle based on an early luftwaffe design with no model actually in your hand. To me this would be an argument in favor of some original droop tail as the pattern for the fakes.

[Sal Williams]

One thing is for sure these boards sure got each of us interested in our own little area of concentration!

[Robin Lumsden]

To me this would be an argument in favor of some original droop tails as the pattern for the fakes.

Sounds logical, Sal.

[Robin Lumsden]

One thing is for sure these boards sure got each of us interested in our own little area of concentration!

Yes..............turned out to be an entertaining thread.

[Sal Williams]

Yes but it seems odd also that such a rare specimen, if it exists at all, would find its way into a fakers hands and he would be unaware of the much more common "normal" eagle which would not be questioned so much. And that all the following fakes would follow this rare pattern! That is the con side of my theory. It is all very perplexing. I need something solid to go on to believe in these. It is unfourtunate that the other boards that Bob has seen and had did not have these on it. It leaves this as a VERY weird anomaly!

[Sal Williams]

I would so very much like to see detailed pics of that danm SK!!!!!!