S&l ??

[Leroy]

How much left over parts for awards do you think were laying around?

Don,
I have no idea. Certainly, there were enough completed pieces and (according to Bob Hritz) enough unfinished pieces (no pin, etc.) to fill the dozens of boards he personally obtained from vets. The same applies to the dozens of boards found by George Petersen and many others. Not to continue to beat a horse, but it is well known that Jim Atwood found immense quantities of both finished and unfinished daggers and component parts in Solingen. Why would these have still been there? Who knows? But they were.
Regarding the size of the equipment, you are right that some pieces were relatively small, but not all and not the ones for die-stamping complete medal planchets. Not to say that they were HUGE (as you might see in a tank factory), but they were still not insubtantial.
Regards,
Leroy

[Don D.]

If they had alot of leftover parts then the boards should hold textbook pieces.

[Leroy]

If they had alot of leftover parts then the boards should hold textbook pieces.

And the ones we have been able to see (with the exception of the APB) (the manufacturing history of which is almost always in dispute among collectors) and the SK (which may be a true error) ARE "textbook" or at least established in photos to have existed wartime. If we think we know the absolute and final story of badge production, we are deluding ourselves, IMHO.

[speedytop]

Leroy,

"All I can say is that ... I have a perfectly valid, and very real, reason (the Allied Commission) why new manufacture (the actual creation of new parts) would not have happened in the period May 8, 1945 to (at least) 1949."

Are you serious?

Why do you think that you know more about the German history and about the life of the Germans in this time?
Oh yes, the Allied Commission command something and all the Germans follow without any objection.
Please have a look at Iraq and Afghanistan. It is the same there.

Have you lived in this time here in Germany? I have lived in this time here.
Your statements are unrealistic, sorry.

No further comments on this absurdity.

Or can you really prove your statements?

"If we think we know the absolute and final story of badge production, we are deluding ourselves"


Robin,

what do you think, what "Fahnen-Fleck", "Erich Beinhorn", "Die Ordensammlung", "Friedrich Sedaltzek" (sales announcements in a book 1952, Der Deutsche Soldatenkalender 1953) and several other salesman offered in this time?
Not, or very seldom, pieces out of the time 1933-1945.
For that you could find the pieces in antique shops like e.g. "Paul Habelt" and many other shops.
1957 versions does not exist at this time.

Yes, they offered post WWII copies/fakes, "Originale wie verliehen", handwritten from Mr. Sedlatzek 1956; please see Dietrich Maerz, The Knights Cross of the Iron Cross, page 383.

Regards
Uwe

Please excuse my bad English

[Leroy]

Uwe,
Your English is fine.
Yes, I am serious. Please show me the documented fake badge made as "new production" prior to 1949.

" what do you think, what "Fahnen-Fleck", "Erich Beinhorn", "Die Ordensammlung", "Friedrich Sedaltzek" (sales announcements in a book 1952, Der Deutsche Soldatenkalender 1953) and several other salesman offered in this time?
Not, or very seldom, pieces out of the time 1933-1945.
For that you could find the pieces in antique shops like e.g. "Paul Habelt" and many other shops.
1957 versions does not exist at this time.

Yes, they offered post WWII copies/fakes, "Originale wie verliehen", handwritten from Mr. Sedlatzek 1956; please see Dietrich Maerz, The Knights Cross of the Iron Cross, page 383."

I HAVE seen these. Where are the ones from 1945-49? The ones you mention are all from after that time.

Don't misunderstand me. If there is absolute proof of "new production" in 1945-49, I would LOVE to see it (and there will be no hard feelings!). So far, I have not.
Regards,
Leroy

[Mike Bollow]

Until VERY recently I thought Knight's Crosses were in one of two categories: real or reproduction. Now I see there is a third category: assembled after May 8, 1945.

Here's my two cents: no matter whether or not the COMPONENTS were produced prior to May 8th, 1945 and then assembled later, the fact remains that the "magic" is gone from the piece. If it didn't get made during the war, when Goebels was on the radio urging the German people to fight on as the bombs were raining down... it's just a really neat looking medal.

Once you subtract "the magic" (and you HAVE to with crosses that were assembled after the war) it becomes all about the financial aspect of collecting Knight's Crosses.... are they worth as much as an L/12? What can I sell mine for? Etc. etc.

If I had a late "B" type that was in unissued condition with all kinds of die flaws, I would absolutely WANT it to be considered a wartime piece but in the back of my mind I would worry that it was missing "the magic." You can't convince somebody to believe in this feeling about your medal... they either do or do not. Charts and graphs and stats don't speak to the emotions you get when you hold something like this in your hand. The magic is there or it isn't.

Thank you to everybody that has poured so much time and energy into this fascinating topic!

Best regards - Mike

[Robin Lumsden]

I'm beginning to wish I'd never started this thread, now!

[Leroy]

And why, of all people, was I the first one to see that SK on one of the boards!

[Robin Lumsden]

I'm surprised the antics of Monsieur Eyns haven't come into the conversation yet.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I'm beginning to wish I'd never started this thread, now!

Why? Because some Germans who can read original German documents and have lived during the time or at least know about that time and machinations don't agree with you? There is something to be said about being able to read the original documents!

[Robin Lumsden]

Why? Because some Germans who can read original German documents and have lived during the time or at least know about that time and machinations don't agree with you? There is something to be said about being able to read the original documents!

Dietrich.

I always thought it was a bit unfair of people to say that Germans had no sense of humour.

Now, I'm not so sure.

It was a joke, for goodness sake!

Please lighten up.

Oh...........and I can read original documents (slowly!), by the way.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Mine was a joke, too!

[Robin Lumsden]

Mine was a joke, too!

Well, you know what they say.

The Scots have no sense of humour!

[DavidM]

Hello

If an RK, EK or any other type of Third Reich award was assembled after the 8th May 1945, (regardless of whether this was in 45, 46, 47 etc), but used parts made before that date, I would agree that it is a post war produced item and that, as someone else has said, it doesn't have the 'magic' about it; but it cannot be classed as a fake per se.

However, that aside, if we have an RK, EK etc assembled after the end of WW2, by the people who made them during the war, to the same standard of finish and made entirely using components pressed out, stamped or what have you during WW2 - and thus having the relevant 'fingerprints' of originality - how can these be told apart from their totally wartime made cousins? If they can't be told apart, how can anyone be certain (aside from the odd cast iron provenance) that what they have is a wartime made item? Equally, how can anyone say that the boards under discussion here aren't a mixture of genuine wartime made items, post war assembled, but using wartime made parts, pieces, (please show and demonstrate how these can be told apart from wholey wartime made/assembled items), items made solely after the end of the war and out right fakes and fantasy pieces? Indeed, can anyone say with conviction or better yet, with proof, that these boards were produced in a given year? And if we can't provide answers to these questions, how do these boards contribute to our knowledge of Third Reich medals and awards?

So, can anyone provide answers please.

Regards
David

[Robin Lumsden]

Can anyone provide answers please?

I don't think so.