S&l ??

[WARLORD]

Robin your point stands in good stead. Very few if any fakes, like wise the Littlejohn collection. The differences in the Oake and swords difer in interepritation. Many manfactures produce items. One set of Oakes with historical provinance, that is pre 1945, have the stamp L/19. OK wear did they come from.

[Robin Lumsden]

A lot of what was and is called 'veteran's buy' is and was bad. A lot was also good.

I have always said that. No disagreement there.

I am as skeptical as the next guy.

Far more so, in fact.

But it's impossible to prove originality in most cases, isn't it?

Back to the evil genius thing again.

Common sense has to come into the equation somewhere along the line.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Just wanted to add this tidbit of info. I was just now looking through Jack Pia's "Nazi Regalia" book from 1971 and noticed that many of the badges have holes drilled through them, as if they were at one time mounted to a board. Also, a lot of his display pages are laid out very much like these boards that we are looking at were. One other interesting point is that toward the back of the book, he shows a gold, silver & bronze CCC. All three have holes drilled in the ends, like they were once tacked onto a board. The gold and silver CCCs are FLL badges and the bronze is an S&L, for whatever that is worth.

Tom

[Leroy]

Tom,
I mentioned this today to Robin also. All the badges are credited to the Imperial War Museum collection. Unfortunately, there appears to be no way to verify with them just where these badges came from. Given that the photos posted here showing British soldiers with German medals are both also credited to the IWM, one has to wonder if there is not some direct connection.
It is interesting that one of the FLL's illustrated in Pia, in addition to having holes drilled, is also missing its backplate, even though it appears to be mint. This is suggestive, although not conclusive, of an unfinished piece.
One last observation. The KVK RK's on the last board posted by Dave-B (which are silvered zink according to Dave-B), and also the silvered zink KVK RK included in the separate grouping Dave-B saw years ago (and from which he bought his RK's, Oaks and O&S) appear to be the S&L versions of these awards. These are EXTREMELY scarce today.
Best,
Leroy

[münster]

Hi guys,

Just wanted to add this tidbit of info. I was just now looking through Jack Pia's "Nazi Regalia" book from 1971 and noticed that many of the badges have holes drilled through them, as if they were at one time mounted to a board. Also, a lot of his display pages are laid out very much like these boards that we are looking at were. One other interesting point is that toward the back of the book, he shows a gold, silver & bronze CCC. All three have holes drilled in the ends, like they were once tacked onto a board. The gold and silver CCCs are FLL badges and the bronze is an S&L, for whatever that is worth.

Tom

I think in those Pia books the holes are from the early collectors displaying items on boards for visual effect in their own collections. I think the owners themselves did that.

[WARLORD]

If I remember corectly the holes were infact done at the museum. It was how they were displayed. In Pias book you will also see a number of fakes. These were introduced in the late 60s early 70s when you could look at the pieces in hand. The real items were exchanged for the copies.

[münster]

If I remember corectly the holes were infact done at the museum. It was how they were displayed. In Pias book you will also see a number of fakes. These were introduced in the late 60s early 70s when you could look at the pieces in hand. The real items were exchanged for the copies.

Sorry i mistook the story for collectors, I forgot who told me that but it was many many years ago, I still have those books at my house which i bought in 1977 when I was 7, really nostalgic stuff!

[Leroy]

I believe the Pia books were published around 1971 and there are indeed many ugly things in there attributed to the IWM collection (just look at the Honor Roll clasps, which are horrific). On the other hand, there are some nice badges in there, including some Luft pieces that appear to be from GWL, also a Ludenschied company. It would be interesting to see what percentage of the badges in those books, and attributed to the IWM, can be identified (at least from the front) as being possibly good badges from Ludenschied makers. I have a feeling that most of the badges which at least appear to be good can be identified as coming from that town, which was certainly a major center for badge production during the war, and which (although initially liberated and occupied by Americans) was in the "British Sector" after the war.

Something else we should be looking at (suggested to me by a friend who does research for the Holocaust Museum). Every German company (at least in the portions of Germany occupied by the Western Powers) had to go through a process of "de-nazification" before being allowed to resume production.

In Ludenschied we have a number of companies whose sole job was to produce badges for the military/political establishment of Nazi Germany. What did they have to do to get back in business in the postwar world? Some folded, but others came back (and some are still in business today). According to Dietrich and others, somebody (presumably S&L) was supplying newly made Nazi badges (including RK's) to dealers at least by 1953 (although these dealers claimed that there were still in existence large quantities of original material, a claim which might well be true). It's hard to imagine that the occupying forces would allow renewed actual production (i.e. die stamping, etc.) of Nazi material in the first years following the war. The sale or barter of material from leftover existing stock, however, might well have been something the authorities "turned a blind eye to" in those early years, a way of allowing the people to supplement, in some small way, the very poor economic conditions existing at that time. Just a thought. There was NO worldwide market on a large and immensely profitable scale for Nazi badges then as exists today. Soldiers seeking souvenirs, yes. A few German vets wanting to replace their confiscated badges, yes. A MAX show or SOS show every year? No way. Internet? Dreamland. Good reference books? None.

[Robin Lumsden]

It's hard to imagine that the occupying forces would allow renewed production (i.e. die stamping, etc.) of Nazi material in the first years following the war.

Correct.

In fact, they outlawed it completely in Germany.

[Dietrich Maerz]

In fact, they outlawed it completely in Germany.

Well, then I must say that S&L broke the law! They clearly produced at least the Knights Cross very early after the war - before 1957. Guess you have to tell the British occupation force that there was a unlawful breach!

According to Dietrich and others, somebody (presumably S&L) was supplying newly made Nazi badges (including RK's) to dealers at least by 1953.

The Revue article (1953) is very clear about this and the company of S&L is mentioned by name as the source of the medals. Unlawful? I don't think so - only the open display and wearing was unlawful. And I have a very tough time believing that S&L was the only company. No way!

[Robin Lumsden]

Well, then I must say that S&L broke the law!

Yes, they most certainly did, if they made any Nazi awards after 21st September 1949.

On 21st September 1949, the Allied High Commission in Germany prohibited the wearing of all Wehrmacht and NSDAP uniforms, badges, medals and other regalia and also made the manufacture of such items unlawful and punishable by 5 years imprisonment and a fine of 25,000 Marks.

I don't think a firm like S&L would have risked breaking the law in this way, when it was trying to get back on its feet after the war. No way.

So if they made RKs or anything else with swastikas after 1945, manufacture would have stopped in 1949. I have no doubt about that.

Gesetz Nr.7 der Alliierten Hohen Kommission - Uniformen und Abzeichen - vom 21 September 1949. (AHKABl. S.11). Art. 3. 'Die Herstellung..........sind verboten...........'.

[Robin Lumsden]

Unlawful? I don't think so - only the open display and wearing was unlawful.

Gesetz Nr.7 der Alliierten Hohen Kommission - Uniformen und Abzeichen - vom 21 September 1949. (AHKABl. S.11). Art. 3. 'Die Herstellung..........sind verboten...........'.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I have no doubt about that.

You might have no doubt, but I can prove that they did. It is clearly outlined and easy for every reader to understand in my book. They did it before and after 1957. Proven!

So now what?

[Leroy]

I believe that when we look back on the years immediately following the war, and the badges which were available during that time, we unfortunately tend to take our current "mindset" with us. Fakes galore, "hot off the press" new medals, strange marks and pins we're not familiar with (and which, accordingly, MUST be fake), etc., etc.

The reality, I believe, is that if we had a time machine and were able to "show up" in Ludenschied (or for that matter, most anyplace else in Germany) in the first few years after the war, and approached collecting the way we do now, we would be looked at (even if we were dressed correctly!) as people from another planet. If you examined a badge the way we do on this Forum or at a show today, and talked about it the way we do now, those people would look at us as though we were Donald Duck and walk away, shaking their heads.

I know we all tend to believe, as gospel, that "fakes were being made before the ink was dry on the surrender document." Think about that seriously for a while. Just look at the dagger world. In the years immediately following the war, dress daggers and bayonets (real) were being engraved for presentation souvenirs at U.S. Army "Field Day" celebrations. When was it that Jim Atwood started visiting the factories and coming out with boatloads of both original completed daggers and parts he could use to assemble new ones? Wasn't it in the late 50's and early 60's?

Don't get me wrong. I feel sure that as the mid-fifties approached, the supply of some of the scarcer real badges and medals (never made in great quantity in the first place) was starting to thin out. West Germany, as a "new country", was coming into its own. The Bundeswehr (and the reauthorization of
some of the old awards for wear in a new form) was just around the corner. There was heightened interest in the war years. New books and memoirs were coming out. Germany, our former foe, was now our new friend (and base) in the struggle against Communism. At some point, probably in the early-to-mid-fifties (judging from the Schiffer and Sedlatzek catalogs we have all seen), medal suppliers in Germany could pretty openly sell you anything, and if they didn't have an original, they'd send you someplace you could find it. Eventually, though, and certainly by the late 50's and early 60's, the really good stuff was pretty much gone (although some, like Schiffer, even into the mid-60's, continued to maintain that their material was STLL all original) (which even caused Frau Kleitman, of Godet fame, to scoff). There WAS some good stuff left, but not much.

It's just my opinion, based on as much as I have been able to learn (after earnestly trying), that there were very, very, very few copy or "newly-made" badges and medals until the late 50's and early 60's, and that the "explosion" came even after that.

[Robin Lumsden]

They did it before and after 1957. Proven!
So now what?

If S&L made any decorations with swastikas immediately after 1949, they broke the 1949 law.

I find that hard to believe.

The Allied Commission came to an end in 1955, and with it ended the 1949 law.

That's all I'm saying.