S&l ??

[Leroy]

Here is the thread Dietrich mentioned: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=placemat

Re-reading this, I can certainly believe that these boards COULD be immediately postwar, put together by desperate people merely trying to stay alive in the immediate months following the war.

That said, the RK's are apparently real Type "A"'s, without flaws. The SK's are marked with the PKZ number "4" (including the down-tail), the O&S are of a type known to have been worn by Manteuffel (who received the Swords in February, 1944) and others, but supposedly forbidden to private sale fairly early on. As noted by Harry, the soldering is sloppy (but matches, except in coloration) the soldering on the set shown by Dave B (also on a Type "A"). The Oakleaves set is also a commercial piece, which fell under the same private sale ban as the O&S. The CCC's, as Tom pointed out, are by different makers (but all headquartered in Ludenschied). The gold CCC, because of its excellent remaining finish, COULD be an earlier piece.

It would be very interesting for those knowledgeable in Luft, Navy and Army badges to add their thoughts to the timeline possibilities.

All (including the down-tailed SK) with expertise from Detlev Niemann and being sold by a British dealer not known as a fool.

Dave B, do you have (since you were also bidding on these) any more light you could shed on these boards?

Looks like someone had access to the candy store!

[Darrell]

.......That said, the RK's are apparently real Type "A"'s, without flaws. The SK's are marked with the PKZ number "4" (including the down-tail), the O&S are of a type known to have been worn by Manteuffel (who received the Swords in February, 1944) and others, but supposedly forbidden to private sale fairly early on. As noted by Harry, the soldering is sloppy (but matches, except in coloration) the soldering on the set shown by Dave B (also on a Type "A"). The Oakleaves set is also a commercial piece, which fell under the same private sale ban as the O&S. ..

But again .... why the low pricing? Surely if the boards and items on them are real (at least the sales indicate that) .. so are the Oaks and Oaks and Swords. Correct?

Unless someone knows something they aren't telling us

[Leroy]

Darrell,
I don't think the pricing is significantly low. The Swords set with "A" type RK is priced at $19,000 (US) on the "emedals" site. Detlev just sold a nice "A" with full ribbon for 6000 Euros (($8333) and, separately, a set of "unofficial", but L/12 marked, Oakleaves for that same amount (a total of $16,666 US). Here we have an unmarked set of "unofficial" Swords (maybe S&L, maybe not) and an "A" type with cut ribbon offered together for 19K. Seems pretty comparable to me.
Leroy

[Darrell]

Darrell,
I don't think the pricing is significantly low. The Swords set with "A" type RK is priced at $19,000 (US) on the "emedals" site. Detlev just sold a nice "A" with full ribbon for 6000 Euros (($8333) and, separately, a set of "unofficial", but L/12 marked, Oakleaves for that same amount (a total of $16,666 US). Here we have an unmarked set of "unofficial" Swords (maybe S&L, maybe not) and an "A" type with cut ribbon offered together for 19K. Seems pretty comparable to me.
Leroy

That's what I mean:

Cross = $8300 + Oaks = $16,700 = $25k .. a tad bit more than the $13k for this set.

Reminds me of the Dealers that say ... "oh this B-Type S&L is 100% original to the period" .. yet they offer them for the great sale of $6000

[Leroy]

Darrell,
I must be missing what you are saying.

The L/12 set of Oaks on DN's site went for 6000 Euros ($8333). The "A" type RK on DN's site also went for 6000 Euros ($8333). I don't believe DN was discounting an "A" type.

We may be talking "past" each other! The "emedals" Oakleaves set IS, as you say, $13000. So (comparing Oaks to Oaks, and not O&S to Oaks, as I was doing in my post), "emedals" is asking about $3000 LESS than the set one could have assembled from DN's site. I think the price differential is due to the Oakleaves offered by "emedals" being unmarked and DN's set being marked L/12, as well as the ribbon on the "emedals" set being shortened. The Oaks on "emedals" (as with the O&S) may or may not be by S&L. They do not match exactly the die characteristics of S&L Oaks. So they are, for better or worse, an "unattributed" commercial set. The $19,000 being asked for the "emedals" O&S set seems about right to me, given these same factors.

Leroy

[Darrell]

This is what you said Leroy. I assume an "A" is a Type A Cross and not Oaks?

Darrell,
Detlev just sold a nice "A" with full ribbon for 6000 Euros (($8333)

Anyway I think we are talking past each other

[Leroy]

I agree!

Detlev sold an "A" type S&L Knights Cross for 6000 Euros ($8333) with full ribbon and in good shape. It DID have beading flaws on the arms. The L/12 Oaks were sold separately by him, also for $8333.

Leroy

P.S. At this point, I'm really more fascinated by the Spanish Cross with "droop-tail" eagles! A lot of people think I'm nuts to believe these existed, but Neil Hardin confirmed to me at the MAX (again) that they were indeed manufactured and worn in limited quantities, but had been made unsaleable by repeated attacks by self-styled "experts". Now we see one, in the company of several with regular eagles, on a board which appears to have been assembled (at the worst) immediately after the close of the war. What is more interesting still is that (IF I am reading the "e-medals" description correctly) it is in gold W/O swords, a class not supposed to exist. Years ago, Carl Robin told me that he believed such a class was manufactured, but never awarded, and was the result of manufacturers "jumping the gun" and assuming that the gold class would be like the rest (with and without swords). To see a droop-tail SK in gold w/o swords makes me believe that the droop-tail version, in general, was also a case of manufacturers "jumping the gun" and producing such a cross only to have the Luftwaffe change eagle styles before the first cross was awarded. This would also explain why the case for the Next-of-Kin SK has a droop-tail eagle on the lid, but the medal itself, as presented, was of the "standard" tail design.

[Sal Williams]

Leroy, you are quite the believer. Not one single pic of a droop tail SK ever found but a droop tail in GOLD without swords on a board almost identical to other boards with different awards ,all with some anomalies, makes you a believer in the droop tail???? What does Hardin give as evidence of a droop tail being original? A photo? A hunch? What on earth do you base the statement that "at worst the board was put together immediately post war"? There are a damn lot of photos of SK traeger out there and not one single droop tail so far. It is possible but then again it is possible that gravity will stop working tomorrow too. I would wait for some sort of evidence before I put ANY stock in a droop tail. Find me a good quality droop tail and that would help. Find me one with known hardware. Find me one with a mm that matches properly. Something, anything.

Best, Sal

[Harry]

"notice that the loop on the reverse of the oaks has not been extended to accomodate the swords, so that the swords do not clear the RK frame"

Otto Weidinger on page 439 of Their Honor was Loyalty has a short loop on his swords in which the sword handles clearly foul against the RK frame, interesting.

....also interesting to note that Weidinger was awarded the Oakleaves and Swords on 6th May 1945, the last day of the war in the west, yet he has photos of himeself taken wearing the O&S, so technically he wore them early post-war...but were they made pre 6th May??

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

I would have to think that if S&L had these sales boards up in their window during the war, or walked around by a salesman during the war, they would have used a much nicer board material than this plain cardboard. Presentation goes a long way in sales and I think that is a very telling aspect to these "boards" and says these are most definately put together after the war as souveniers.

But, all the awards "appear" to be wartime produced and without being able to see the back of the awards, this is the best evidence so far for the droop-tail eagles being wartime IMO. Sal, I disagree that you can just dismiss these altogether just based on no photographic evidence. It is definately a mark against them, but not entirely conclusive either.

On that note, I will say that the finish on some of the badges reminds me of post war products by S&L. As far as the CCCs go, we know that the S&L CCC dies survived the war (the 1957 CCC used the wartime reverse die). Also, the GWL CCC obverse die survived the war as I have seen absolutely identical reproductions with the correct obverse, but the reverse was wrong. Since Ludenscheid was never bombed, its entirely possible that the FLL CCC dies also survived and all three firms continued to make at least CCCs post war for souveniers. That could explain why the FLL CCC does NOT have a backplate, yet the badge is in mint condition and most likely spent its entire life strapped to that board.

Ultimately, I think we need to see the reverses of these badges to make a determination of if we can see any discrepancies between wartime produced badges and these on the boards. The CCCs look original enough, but the reverse lies all the clues we need to show these were produced after the war.

Tom

[Sal Williams]

I don't dismiss them altogether Tom, I say give me something more than just some put together sometime postwar boards. I dont think a gold droop tail WITHOUT SWORDS on a board with S&L (of all makers) marked SKs, thought to be put together post war, lends much to the droop tail being original case. I named a number of other things besides photos that would help the droop tail case besides just photos in wear (which would be conclusive). The only thing that lends anything in favor of a droop tail, is the next of kin case, which is just artwork depicting what was standard luftwaffe design. That is the only thing so far that puts any small question in my mind. Get the one off that board, and if its quality,has some known S&L hardware and the preported mm is good, then you have something.

[Dave-B]

Dave B, do you have (since you were also bidding on these) any more light you could shed on these boards?

There is not much more I can tell you really. The RKs are definitely Type A non flawed micro 800s. Talking with the auctioneer and having a couple of hours to examine the boards I would say that they were made up postwar for the souvenir hunters especially as there are several other manufacturers wares on the boards. Most of them were late war types, interesting though that the RKs were Type As.
I had noticed at the time that one of the Spanish Crosses had droop tailed eagles but I couldn't remember if this was good or bad

My lot also came about in the same way, 3 Type A RKs one with the elongated Swords, another with I believe a set of S&L 57 Swords and a set of Oaks also S&L, these were all bought in one lot from a local auction.
This is how I got them...

[Dave-B]

..

[Dave-B]

Here is a reverse shot of the Swords I had (sorry for naff pics, taken years ago before I had a good digi camera).

[Dave-B]

The obverse..