Interesting Group ...

[Leroy]

I must not be cynical enough!

It is beyond my comprehension that a young officer of the Grosdeutschland Division would pose for photographs (whether towards the end or shortly after the war) in which he is wearing high decorations which were not actually awarded to him.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Not much different to the story of Fallschirmjaeger Unteroffizier Friedrich Olmes who announced after the war that he was the sole and only awardee of the German Cross with Diamonds.... imposters can be everywhere, even in the Grossdeutschland-Division!

[Leroy]

I don't know about Olmes, but here is a photo of Andling as a Hauptmann in the Bundeswehr.

[Leroy]

His ribbon bar closer. Note the RK and DK and multiple TDB's.

History is being re-written by purists who care more for index cards than reality.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Gentry,

even if it shatters your belief system: an award is an award when it was officially approved and bestowed. If there is no record about that (there is for the Rk, but not for the DK), what is there to say? That he deserved it anyway and therefore it was good that he just had one? Not very nice for the more than 24000 who really got the German cross. But maybe his card was missing in the records.

Dietrich

[Leroy]

And I suppose this is why Scherzer also deleted the following:

Fromm, Friedrich 06.07.1940 Gen d Art Chef HRüst und BdE
Heistermann von Ziehlberg, Gustav 27.07.1944 Genlt Kdr 28. Jäg.Div
Herfurth, Otto 14.09.1942 Oberst Kdr Inf.Rgt 117
Hoepner, Erich 27.10.1939 Gen d Kav K.G. XVI. AK
Hößlin von, Roland 23.07.1942 Hauptmann Fhr Pz.AA 33
Jäger, Fritz 26.05.1940 Major Kdr II./Inf.Rgt 8
Lindemann, Fritz 04.09.1941 Oberst z.V. Arko 138
Olbricht, Friedrich 27.10.1939 Generalleutnant Kdr 24. Inf.Div
Stülpnagel von, Carl-Heinrich 21.08.1941 Gen d Inf OB 17. Armee
Thüngen Frhr von, Karl 06.04.1943 Generalleutnant Kdr 18. Pz.Div
Witzleben von, Erwin 24.06.1940 GenO OB

...all of whom were stripped of their RK's following the July 20, 1944 bomb plot.

I am sorry, Dietrich, but it is revisionist history, with which even the Ritterkreuztraeger association disagrees.

Yes, it is TECHNICALLY and according to the "rules", correct.

Certainly, some RK's were given, at the very end of the war, by Commanders, cut off from any central government support or organization, who wished to recognize extraordinary heroism, in the face of doom, by their troops. Some, I am sure, may have even gone to "pals". This latter category I can see as being worthy of removal. The others, no.

This is my personal opinion. No one has to agree or disagree.

[Don D.]

"Some, I am sure, may have even gone to "pals". This latter category I can see as being worthy of removal. The others, no."

While I can see both sides of this I have to ask, "Who decides?"

[Dietrich Maerz]

Leroy,

the notion that this is revisionist history is not very nice...

The Order of The Knights Cross of the Iron Cross was and is an order of the Third Reich and falls under its statutes and laws. If during the Third Reich someone was stripped of the Order then this is part of the history. The ones found "guilty" were stripped of their honor to serve their country (Wehrwürdigkeit). Since this was a so called "honor punishment" regarding the military law, all medals had to be stripped also. This is not an invention of the Third Reich nor was it done to allow later generations to bitch about. By the way - this is common law in every country. If a Medal of Honor recipient tries to shoot the POTUS and is convicted of doing so, he will have the medal stripped.
The Knights Cross awardees who got their "Wehrwürdigkeit" removed by the Thrird Reich in connection with the plot were reinstated by a law of the German Federal Republic, dated 25. August 1998, by the way.

It it neither me nor you to say who got a Knights Cross, neither the OdR nor Scherzer. As you might recall, the final word on who has to have one (or who gets it removed) lay with Adolf HItler - not with the OdR or a determination by a group of collectors 65 years later. Legally, the same applies to the DK, only four people were allowed to make the award decision.

The notion that at the end of the war commanders had the authority to bestow the Knights Cross might be romantic ("He got his cross from Sepp Dietrich") but is not true. From 3 May 45 on only the Supreme Commanders of the Army Groups had the authority to bestow the RK, a total of 10 people. Even then the process with the PA/5 was followed and the award as recorded (as with Anding on 8. May 45!). A case in point is Otto Weidinger. An extremely brave soldier who might have deserved the swords, but he didn't since the swords were 'awarded' by Sepp Dietrich and there are no records anywhere other than a note in the records of the 6. SS-Pz Army., date 6. May 45. He is no sword recipient since acknowledgement of Fellgiebel makes no Sword recipient. To allow that would be revisionist history and a slap in the face to the real winners.

I would not know of any other way of determination who got a RK and who didn't than the actual legal award procedure. Sure, there are hundreds and hundreds of brave soldiers who might have deserved the Knights Cross. But it is NOT ours to decide. To 'award' outside of the documented cases is twisting history!

If we do not stick to the written and performed procedures with the award process, why should we stick with the description of the cross itself? Why not say "The cross could have been made of plastic with eight arms" and declare that for genuine?

There are cases in the USA of winners of the Medal of Honor who didn't get one but rather pretended. I'm sure they were punished and maybe even some of them would have deserved one. But that is not how it works today and neither was it how it was then.
Maybe unromantic - but surely not revisionist!

[Robert T.]

The "cancelled KC winners" by Scherzer;

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=114599

1) Albrecht, Willy 09.05.1945 Hptm d.R. Kdr I./Jäg.Rgt 734
2) Amsberg von, Joachim 09.05.1945 Oberst i.G. Kdr Gren.Rgt 502
3) Ax, Adolf 09.05.1945 SS-Oberführer Fhr 15. Waffen-Gren.Div der SS (lett. Nr. 1)
4) Bachor, Willy 11.05.1945 Oberwachtmeister Zugführer i. d. 12./Pz.Rgt 24
5) Baier, Joseph 09.05.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr Gren.Rgt 36
6) Baldes, Josef 08.05.1945 Fhj-Ofw Flugzeugführer i. d. 1.(F)/Aufkl.Grp 124
7) Barge, Johannes 10.05.1945 Oberst Kdr Festungs-Gren.Rgt „Kreta“
8) Bastian, Heinrich 06.05.1945 SS-Obersturmführer Fhr II./SS-PGR 3 „Deutschland“
9) Bauer, Ludwig 29.04.1945 Leutnant Führer 1./Pz.Rgt 33
10) Baurmann, Heinz 04.05.1945 Hauptmann Kdr Heeres-Stu.Art.Brig 300 (Feld)
11) Bayer, Franz 09.05.1945 Hauptmann Chef i. d. III./Pz.Rgt „GD“
12) Behre, Friedrich 09.05.1945 Leutnant KpFhr im I./Fsch-Pz.Gren.Rgt 1 „HG“
13) Benthack, Hans-Georg 10.05.1945 Generalmajor Kdr Festungs-Division „Kreta“
14) Berzen, August 09.05.1945 Uffz i. d. Festung-Pak-Kp 13/X [bei 180.ID]
15) Biehler, Ernst 09.05.1945 Generalmajor Kdt Festung Frankfurt/Oder
16) Bittrich, Wilhelm SW 06.05.1945 SS-Obergruppenführer K.G. II. SS-Pz.Korps
17) Blanc von, Adalbert EL 10.05.1945 Fregattenkapitän Fhr der 9. Sicherungs-Div
18) Blond, Friedrich 28.04.1945 SS-Ustuf Fhr 12./SS-Pz.Gren.A.u.E.Btl 1 „LSSAH“
19) Bork, Max 11.05.1945 Generalleutnant Kdr 47. Volks-Gren-Div
20) Botsch, Walter 09.05.1945 Generalleutnant K.G. LIII. Armee.Korps
21) Brandner, Josef EL 26.04.1945 Major Kdr Stug.Brig 912
22) Bremermann, Oskar 09.05.1945 Feldwebel Zugführer i. d. 6./Gren.Rgt 209
23) Bremm, Josef SW 09.05.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr Gren.Rgt 990
24) Bretz, Hans 06.05.1945 OFähnr Zugfhr i. d. Pz.Vernichtungs-Brig „Oberschlesien“
25) Bröckerhoff, Wilhelm 08.05.1945 Major Fhr Pz.Art.Rgt „Brandenburg“
26) Burgemeister, Alfred 02.05.1945 Oberst Kdr Gren.Rgt 524
27) Bühler, Karl-Heinz SS-Obersturmbannfhr Kdr SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt 9 „Germania“
28) Büttner, Manfred 29.04.1945 Fhj-Ofw Führer 2./Fsch.Jäg.Rgt 26
29) Decker, Karl SW 26.04.1945 General der Panzertruppe K.G. XXXIX. Pz.Korps
30) Dennhardt, Oskar-Hubert EL 09.05.1945 Major Führer Gren.Rgt 1143
31) Deutsch, Ferdinand 06.05.1945 Olt d.R. Führer einer Kampfgruppe
32) Doemming von, Diethelm 30.04.1945 Major Kdr II./Pz.Gren.Rgt 9
33) Dombacher, Kurt 08.04.1945 Leutnant Flugzeugführer i. d. 1./J.G. 51 „Mölders“
34) Draxenberger, Sepp 17.04.1945 SS-Hauptscharfhr Pi.Zugfhr i.d. StabsKp/SS-PR 5
35) Dreike, Franz-Joseph 06.05.1945 SS-Hauptsturmführer Kdr SS-Flak-Abt 2
36) Drexler, Oskar 06.05.1945 SS-Obersturmbannführer Kdr SS-Pz.Art.Rgt 12
37) Egger, Paul 28.04.1945 SS-Obersturmführer Zugfhr i. d. 1./s.SS-Pz.Abt 502
38) Einem von, Hans-Egon 11.05.1945 Oberst Kdr Pz.Gren.Rgt 21
39) Eisgruber, Karl 01.06.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr Geb.Jäg.Rgt 98
40) Fabich, Maximilian 09.05.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr Pz.Korps-Füs.Rgt „GD“
41) Feller, Wolfgang 17.06.1945 Olt z.S. d.R. Gruppenfhr i. d. 36. Minensuch-Flotille
42) Fernau, Hans-Georg 04.05.1945 Hauptmann Kdr I./Gren.Rgt (mot) „FHH“
43) Fey, Wilhelm (Will) 29.04.1945 SS-Stand-Objk. Fhr e Pz.Jgd.Kdo / Kgr Mohnke
44) Fiebig, Heinz 08.05.1945 Generalmajor Kdr 84. Inf.Div
45) Fischer, Alfred 11.05.1945 SS-Sturmbannführer Kdr II./SS-Pz.Art.Rgt 11
46) Fleischer, Rudolf 09.05.1945 Major Kdr Heeres-Flak.Art.Abt 314
47) Flocke, Paul 30.04.1945 Leutnant Führer 5./Gren.Rgt 915
48) Florschütz, Wilhelm 09.05.1945 Hauptmann Kdr I./Volks-Pi.Brig (mot) 47
49) Fröhlich, Kurt 06.05.1945 SS-Hauptsturmführer Führer II./SS-Pz.Rgt 9
50) Fromm, Friedrich 06.07.1940 Gen d Art Chef HRüst und BdE [20. Juli 1944]
51) Gaigals, Roberts 05.05.1945 Waffen-Ostuf Fhr 6./W-GR d SS 42
52) Gebhard, ? 06.05.1945 SS-Oberscharfhr Zugführer i. d. 2./SS-Pz.Pi.Btl 2
53) Gehl, Paul 09.05.1945 Oberleutnant d.R. Führer I./Gren.Rgt 453
54) Gerlach, Karl 03.05.1945 Oberleutnant Chef 4./Pz.Rgt 35
55) Gersteuer, Günter 28.04.1945 Major Kdr Fsch-Stug.Brig 12
56) Göller, Siegwart 09.05.1945 Hauptmann d.R. Kdr II./Geb.Jäg.Rgt 98
57) Golz, Herbert 03.05.1945 SS-Staf. u O d Schupo Chef GenSt X. SS-AK u Fhr e Kgr
58) Graßmel, Franz EL 08.05.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr Fsch.Jäg.Rgt 20
59) Gräser, Fritz-Hubert SW 08.05.1945 Gen d PzTruppe OB 4. Panzer.Armee
60) Gropp, Heinz 06.05.1945 SS-Obersturmführer d.R. Fhr 2./SS-Flak-Abt 9
61) Grosan, Erhard 28.04.1945 Oberst Kdr Kgr Grosan / Armeegruppe Blumentritt
62) Groth, Heinz 09.05.1945 Major d.R. IIa 1.Volks-Geb.Div u Fhr Geb.Jäg.Rgt 98
63) Hack, Franz EL 18.04.1945 SS-Obersturmbannfhr Kdr SS-PGR 10 „Westland“
64) Hampel, Desiderius 03.05.1945 SS-Brig.Fhr Kdr Kgr 13. Waffen-GD „Handschar“
65) Hanke, Hans 03.05.1945 SS-Obersturmbannfhr Kdr Waffen-GJR der SS 28
66) Hartrampf, Kurt 28.04.1945 SS-Sturmbannführer Kdr s.SS-Pz.Abt 502
67) Harttrumpf, Paul 08.05.1945 Leutnant Führer 1./Gren.Rgt 12
68) Harzenetter, Johann 09.05.1945 Hauptmann Kdr II./Gren.Rgt 331
69) Hasenpusch, Rudolf 27.04.1945 Leutnant Führer Brücken-Kommando 16
70) Haukelt, Edgar 28.04.1945 SS-Obersturmführer Chef 1./SS-Jagd-Pz.Abt 561
71) Hauser, Hans 06.05.1945 SS-Stubaf. u Maj d Schupo Kdr I./SS-PGR 4 „Der Führer“
72) Havik, Hans 09.05.1945 SS-Untersturmführer Zugfhr i. d. 1./SS-Pol-Pz.Abt 4
73) Heiland, Hans 09.05.1945 Leutnant Führer 5./Pz.Gren.Rgt 126
74) Heistermann von Ziehlberg, Gustav 27.07.1944 Genlt Kdr 28. Jäg.Div [20. Juli 1944]
75) Hengstler, Richard 28.04.1945 Hauptmann Chef 1./Fsch-Stug.Brig 12
76) Herfurth, Otto 14.09.1942 Oberst Kdr Inf.Rgt 117 [20. Juli 1944]
77) Hesse, Rudolf 09.05.1945 Leutnant Führer 2./Gren.Rgt 165
78) Heuer, Heinz 22.04.1945 Oberfeldwebel (Feldgendarm) i. d. Kgr z.b.V. Berlin 5
79) Hitzfeld, Otto SW 09.05.1945 Gen d Inf K.G. LXVII Armee.Korps
80) Hobe von, Cord 09.05.1945 Otl. Kdr einer Kgr des XIII. SS-Armee.Korps
81) Hoepner, Erich 27.10.1939 Gen d Kav K.G. XVI. AK [1942 and 20. Juli 1944]
82) Hoff, Carl 09.05.1945 Kapitänleutnant Chef 1. Räumbott-Flotille
83) Hoffmann, Ludwig 11.05.1945 SS-Hstuf. Fhr III./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt 23 „Norge“
84) Hofmann, Paul 09.05.1945 Leutnant Führer 6./Gren.Rgt 352
85) Hohenhausen und Hochhaus Frhr von, Oskar 11.05.1945 Otl Kdr Pz.Gren.Rgt 9
86) Hohmeier, Heinrich 09.05.1945 Feldwebel Zugführer i. d. StabsKp/Gren.Rgt 994
87) Hollermeier, Josef 09.05.1945 Major d.R. Führer Gren.Rgt 1213
88) Hollmann, Ernst 09.05.1945 Hauptmann d.R. Kdr II./Gren.Rgt 1221
89) Hoppe, Hans 08.05.1945 Major Kdr II./Flak-Rgt (mot) 46
90) Hölter, Hermann 03.05.1945 Generalleutnant Chef des Gen.Stabs 20. Geb.Armee
91) Hönniger, Theodor 09.05.1945 Oberfeldwebel Zugführer i. d. 3./Pz.Rgt 25
92) Hößlin von, Roland 23.07.1942 Hauptmann Fhr Pz.AA 33 [20. Juli 1944]
93) Hüttebräucker, Hermann 06.05.1945 Hptm Lehrer a.d. PzTr.Schule Milowitz
94) Jaquet, Fritz 09.05.1945 Leutnant Adjutant I./Gren.Rgt 62
95) Jäckel, Karl 09.05.1945 Obersteuermann Steuermann U-907
96) Jäger, Fritz 26.05.1940 Major Kdr II./Inf.Rgt 8 [20. Juli 1944]
97) Jodl, Alfred EL 10.05.1945 GenO Chef Wehrmachts-GenStab im OKW
98) Jungwirt, Hans 09.05.1945 Major Kdr Fsch-Aufkl.Abt 12
99) Jürgens, Heinz 09.05.1945 SS-Hauptsturmführer Kdr SS-Pz.Aufkl.Abt 4
100) Kaminski, Werner 06.05.1945 Otl. i.G. Ia Festungs-Div „Kreta“
101) Kausch, Paul-Albert EL 23.04.1945 SS-Ostubf. Kdr SS-PR 11 „Hermann von Salza“
102) Kinz, Helmut 03.05.1945 SS-Hstuf u Hptm d Schupo Kdr SS-Aufkl.Abt 13
103) Kleinheisterkamp, Matthias EL 09.05.1945 SS-Ogruf. K.G. XI. SS-Korps
104) Klemt, Heinrich 02.05.1945 Hauptmann Fhr Pz.Pi.Btl 124 / Führer-Gren.Div
105) Kliemann, Nikodemus 09.05.1945 Oberst d.R. Kdr Gren.Rgt 410
106) Knebel-Doeberitz von, Rudolf 11.05.1945 Major i.G. Ia 24. Pz.Div
107) Koch, Alfred 06.05.1945 SS-Obersturmfhr Kp-Fhr im II./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt 3
108) Koehler, Walter 11.05.1945 Oberfeldwebel Zugfhr i. d. 3./s.Heeres-Pz.Jäg.Abt 525
109) Koj, Ewald 09.05.1945 Hauptmann Chef 3.(Geb)/Art.Rgt 8
110) Kordemann, Martin 11.05.1945 Oberfeldwebel Zugführer i. d. 6./Gren.Rgt 577
111) Körner, Walter 29.04.1945 SS-Hauptsturmfhr Adjutant SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt 23 „Norge“
112) Kreutz, Karl EL 06.05.1945 SS-Staf. Kdr SS-Pz.AR 2 zugl. Fhr 2. SS-Pz.Div
113) Kuchar, Jakob 11.05.1945 Gefreiter Schütze 1 i. d. 8./Jäg.Rgt 228
114) Kunkel, Kurt-Ernst 30.04.1945 Leutnant Chef 2./Fsch.Jäg.Rgt 4
115) Laebe, Heinz-Oskar EL 29.04.1945 Oberst Kdr Gren.Rgt 44
116) Landau, Christian-Johannes 09.05.1945 Generalmajor Kdr 176. Inf.Div
117) Lange, Günther 06.05.1945 SS-Sturmmann Grpfhr i. d. 16./SS-PGR 4 „Der Führer“
118) Laupenmühlen, Oskar 09.05.1945 Oberfeldwebel Führer 7./Gren.Rgt 399
119) Lehmann, Rudolf EL 06.05.1945 SS-Staf. Führer 2. SS-Pz.Div „Das Reich“
120) Lennartz, Hans 09.05.1945 Hauptmann Fhr Alarm-Btl Kolberg [in Köslin]
121) Leroy, Jaques 20.04.1945 SS-Untersturmführer Fhr 1./SS-Freiw-Gren.Rgt 69
122) Lichte, Karl-Heinz 06.05.1945 SS-Hauptsturmführer Chef 5./SS-Pz.Rgt 5
123) Liecke, Karl 03.05.1945 SS-Ostubaf. u Otl der Schupo Kdr Waffen-GJR der SS 27
124) Lier, Friedrich EL 08.05.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr einer Kgr der 490. Inf.Div
125) Limburg-Hetlingen von, Enno-Erich 03.05.1945 Oberst Kdr Gren.Rgt 731
126) Lindemann, Fritz 04.09.1941 Oberst z.V. Arko 138 [20. Juli 1944]
127) Lindenau, Daniel 10.02.1945 Otl. i.G. Chef des Stabes IX. SS-Geb.Korps
128) Lindenblatt, Herbert 03.05.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr Jäg.Rgt 750
129) Lippelt, Rudolf 09.05.1945 Major Kdr II./Art.Rgt 371
130) Lobmeyer, Jakob 28.04.1945 SS-Hstuf. Kdr SS-Jagd-Pz.Abt 561 z.b.V.
131) Lohmann, Hanns-Heinrich 09.05.1945 EL SS-Ostbaf Fhr SS-Frw-PGR 49
132) Lorfing, Artur 09.05.1945 Obergefreiter i. d. 1./Gren.Rgt 956
133) Lotze, Heinz 09.05.1945 Hauptmann d.R. Fhr Alarm-Btl / Kgr Grosan
134) Lüttwitz Frhr von, Heinrich SW 09.05.1945 Gen d PzTr K.G. XXXXVII. Pz.Korps
135) Macher, Robert 14.05.1945 Generalmajor Chef des Stabes / AOK Ostpreußen
136) Matheja, Siegmund 06.05.1945 Uffz i. d. Pz.Haub.Abt / Führer-Gren.Div
137) Mattusch, Walter 06.05.1945 SS-Hstuf Kdr II./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt 3 „Deutschland“
138) Meier, Hans EL 09.05.1945 Hauptmann Kdr I./Pz.Gren.Rgt 74
139) Meindl, Eugen SW 08.05.1945 Gen d FschTr K.G. II. Fsch.Korps
140) Merks, Hans-Joachim 28.05.1945 Kapitänleutnant Chef 2. Räumboot-Flotille
141) Meyer, Friedrich-August 09.05.1945 Oberst Kdr Fsch.Pz.Ers. u Ausb.Brig „HG“
142) Montag, Alfred EL 09.05.1945 Hauptmann d.R. Fhr Stug.Brig 341
143) Morche, Max 09.05.1945 Gefreiter i. d. 14./Gren.Rgt 101
144) Müller-Rochholz, Friedrich 08.05.1945 Hauptmann Kdr Pz.Pi.Btl „Brandenburg“
145) Niehoff, Hermann SW 26.04.1945 Gen d Inf Kdr Fesuntg Breslau
146) Nohr, Karl 09.05.1945 Unteroffizier Gruppenfhr i. d. StabsKp/Gren.Rgt 453
147) Nuhn, Heinrich 09.05.1945 Hauptmann Kdr Pz.Pi.Btl 124 [Führer-Gren-Div]
148) Olbricht, Friedrich 27.10.1939 Generalleutnant Kdr 24. Inf.Div [20. Juli 1944]
149) Ostendorff, Werner EL 06.05.1945 SS-Gruf. Kdr 2. SS-Pz.Div „Das Reich“
150) Ott, Heinz 11.05.1945 Oberwachtmeister Zugführer i. d. 12./Pz.Rgt 24
151) Pade, Gerhard 30.04.1945 Major Kdr I./Fsch.Jäg.Rgt 4
152) Peschel, Georg 11.05.1945 Oberfeldwebel Zugführer i. d. 10./Jäg.Rgt 49
153) Pitsch, Walter 06.05.1945 SS-Hauptscharführer Bttr-Fhr 4./SS-Flak.Art.Abt 1
154) Platz, Hubert 11.05.1945 Major Kdr Pz.Art.Rgt 89
155) Plocher, Hermann EL 08.05.1945 Generalleutnant Kdr 6. Fsch.Jäg.Div
156) Prien, Peter 09.05.1945 Oberleutnant d.R. Fhr StabsKp/Pz.Rgt 3
157) Radochla, Helmut 09.05.1945 Leutnant Zugfhr i. d. 2./Fest.Inf.Btl XXIII./999
158) Radowitz von, Joseph EL 09.05.1945 Generalleutnant Kdr 23. Pz.Div
159) Radziej, Georg 09.05.1945 Generalleutnant Kdr 169. Inf.Div
160) Rebane, Alfons EL 09.05.1945 W-Standartenfhr Kdr Waffen-Gren.Rgt der SS 46
161) Reber, Gustav-Peter 28.04.1945 SS-Ostuf Kdt HQu XI.SS-Pz.K u Fhr e Pz.Jgd.Kdo
162) Reinholds, Voldemars 11.05.1945 W-Sturmbannführer Kdr W-Gren.Rgt der SS 43
163) Rettberg, Rudolf 06.05.1945 SS-Sturmbannführer Kdr II./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt 9
164) Richter, Friedrich 11.05.1945 SS-Sturmbannführer Kdr III./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt 21
165) Riedel, Gerd 08.05.1945 Oberst i.G. Führer Fsch.Jäg.Rgt 7
166) Rieflin, Fritz 06.05.1945 SS-Obersturmführer Chef 2./SS-Pz.Pi.Btl 2
167) Rodemich, Heinrich 11.05.1945 Feldwebel Zugführer i. d. 7./Gren.Rgt 988
168) Roestel, Rudolf 03.05.1945 SS-Ostubaf d.R. Kdr SS-Pz.Häg.Abt 10 u Fhr DivGr 10
169) Roge, Alfred 09.05.1945 SS-Ostuf Fhr 1./SS-Rgt Besslein i. d. Festung Breslau
170) Sailer, Johann 06.05.1945 SS-Obersturmführer Fhr 3./SS-Pz.Jäg.Abt 9
171) Sauter, Jordan 07.05.1945 Hauptmann d.R. Kdr II./Rgt 1 „Theodor Körner“
172) Schaten, Heinrich 09.05.1945 Oberfeldwebel Zugführer i. d. 6./Gren.Rgt 1
173) Schäfer, Karl 16.04.1945 Oberfeldwebel Flugzeugfhr i. d. 14.(Eis)/K.G. 55
174) Scheibe, Siegfried 11.05.1945 SS-Ostubaf Kdr SS-Frw-PGR 48
175) Scherhorn, Heinrich 23.03.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr Sich.Rgt 36
176) Schiemann, Gustav 09.05.1945 Major d.R. Kdr FEB 346
177) Schlags-Koch, Walter EL 09.05.1945 Otl. d.R. Kdr Sturm-Rgt AOK 2
178) Schmidt, Erich EL 09.05.1945 Major Kdr Führer-Pz.Rgt 2
179) Schmidt, Leonhard 30.04.1945 Hauptmann Btl.Fhr II./Fsch.Jäg.Rgt 1
180) Schmude, Ernst-Friedrich 09.05.1945 Hauptmann Führer II./Gren.Rgt 732
181) Schnappauf, Georg 09.05.1945 Major Kdr Führer-Pz.Rgt 1
182) Schnocks, Herbert 08.05.1945 Hauptmann Btl-Kdr im Gren.Rgt 317
183) Scholz, Karl 09.05.1945 Leutnant d.R. Führer 14./Gren.Rgt 4
184) Schubert, ? 09.05.1945 Gefreiter i. d. Festung Glogau
185) Schulz-Streeck, Karlheinz 09.05.1945 SS-Stubaf d.R. Kdr SS-Stug.Abt 11
186) Schütz, Erwin 09.05.1945 Hauptmann d.R. Kdr II./Gren.Rgt 1127
187) Schwanitz, Joachim 09.05.1945 Hauptmann Führer II./Gren.Rgt 3
188) Schweitzer, Willi 24.04.1945 SS-Stubaf Kdr Kgr Schweitzer
189) Seibold, Emil 06.05.1945 SS-Hauptscharführer Zugfhr i. d. 8./SS-Pz.Rgt 2
190) Senbergs, Karlis 11.05.1945 W-Uschaf Grpfhr i.e. Alarmeinheit d 19.W-Gren.Div
191) Sensfuß, Franz EL 09.05.1945 Generalleutnant Kdr 212. Inf.Div
192) Siegroth von, Joachim EL 09.05.1945 Generalmajor Kdr 712. Inf.Div
193) Singer, Herbert 05.05.1945 Hauptmann Kdr II./Füs.Rgt 22
194) Spengler, Fritz 06.05.1945 Hauptmann Kdr I./Gren.Rgt 289
195) Stadler, Sylvester SW 06.05.1945 SS-Oberführer Kdr 9. SS-Pz.Div „Hohenstaufen“
196) Stahl, Paul Dr. EL 09.05.1945 Oberstleutnant d.R. Kdr Gren.Rgt 114
197) Starl, Matthias 01.06.1945 Hauptmann Kdr I./Geb.Jäg.Rgt 98
198) Steinke, Erhard 20.04.1945 Hauptmann Btl-Fhr i. d. 129. Inf.Div
199) Stenwedel, Albert 03.05.1945 SS-Stubaf Kdr II./Waffen-Geb.Jäg.Rgt der SS 27
200) Störck, Georg EL 09.05.1945 Hauptmann d.R. Kdr I./Pz.Gren.Rgt / Führer-Begl-Div
201) Strobl, Heinrich 09.05.1945 Lt Streifkorpsfhr/ Frontaufkl.-Kdo 202
202) Stülpnagel von, Carl-Heinrich 21.08.1941 Gen d Inf OB 17. Armee [20. Juli 1944]
203) Stützle, Nepomuk 08.05.1945 Obergefreiter i. d. Pz.Jäg.Abt „GD“
204) Tenschert, Günther 28.04.1945 Major Kdr II./Rgt Mohr i. d. Festung Breslau
205) Tessenow, Rudolf 11.05.1945 Wachtmeister i. d. 11./Pz.Rgt 24
206) Thieme, Karl SW 09.05.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr Pz.Gren.Rgt 110
207) Thiessen, Hans 09.05.1945 Leutnant Führer 2./Heeres-Flak.Art.Abt „GD“
208) Thüngen Frhr von, Karl 06.04.1943 Generalleutnant Kdr 18. Pz.Div [20. Juli 1944]
209) Timpe, Heinz 07.05.1945 Leutnant Chef 1./Heeres-Sturm.Art.Brig 300 (Feld)
210) Turnwald, Hans 08.05.1945 Leutnant d.R. Fhr Jagd-Pz-Kp 1015
211) Unrau, Heinz 01.05.1945 Major Kdr I./K.G. 51
212) Vierecker, Fritz 28.04.1945 Hptm Fhr einer Alarmeinheit im Oderabschnitt
213) Vitali, Viktor 30.04.1945 Leutnant Zugführer i. d. 5./Fsch.Jäg.Rgt 4
214) Voigt, Hans 28.04.1945 Generalmajor Kampf-Kommandant Arnswalde
215) Vöglte, Helmut 01.06.1945 Hauptmann d.R. Kdr II./Geb.Jäg.Rgt 99
216) Voshage, Werner 08.05.1945 Major Kdr Heeres-Flak.Art.Abt „Brandenburg“
217) Wagener, Otto Dr. 05.05.1945 Generalmajor z.V. Kdt Ost-Aegaeis
218) Walle, Gustav 08.05.1945 Major Kdr Pz.Jäg.Abt „GD“
219) Walter, Helmut 09.05.1945 Hptm Btl.Fhr i.d. Feld-Uffz-Schule Dahlhausen
220) Weck, Hans-Joachim 30.04.1945 Leutnant Führer 3./Fsch.Jäg.Rgt 4
221) Wecker, Franz 09.05.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr Jäg.Rgt 734
222) Weidinger, Otto SW 06.05.1945 SS-Obersturmbannfhr Kdr SS-PGR 4 „Der Führer“
223) Weiler, Bruno 09.05.1945 Oberst Kdr Ski-Jäg.Rgt 1
224) Weinlig, Werner 10.05.1945 Kapitänleutnant Kdt „T 23“
225) Werner, Heinz EL 06.05.1945 SS-Sturmbannführer Fhr III./SS-PGR 4 „Der Führer“
226) Wilhelm, Paul 05.05.1945 Hfw Fhr e Alarm-Kp im Marsch-Btl 469
227) Wisliceny, Günther-Eberhard SW 06.05.1945 SS-Ostubaf Kdr SS-PGR 3
228) Witzleben von, Erwin 24.06.1940 GenO OB 1. Armee [20. Juli 1944]
229) Woehl, Edmund 28.04.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr Pz.Gren.Rgt 30
230) Wulff, Erich 09.05.1945 Major i.G. Ia 15. Waffen-Gren.Div der SS
231) Zoppoth, Gerhard 09.05.1945 Leutnant Führer 6./Gren.Rgt 732
232) Zurin, Alfred 09.05.1945 Leutnant Führer 3./Gren.Rgt 189

[USGI]

"awarded' by Sepp Dietrich and there are no records anywhere other than a note in the records of the 6. SS-Pz Army., date 6. May 45"

That's good enough for me.

[Gran Sasso]

No, he had 3 gold and 3 black for 18 kills.
Marc

Just bringing this great thread back:

No, he had 6 black ones for 6 KO tanks. Most propably a golden one was not available.
Check his postwar BW ribbon bar, showing 1 gold and 1 black, making the correct total of 6.

[Bob Hritz]

To get back to the original intent of this thread, I must ask a simple question. Is the letter of a dealer enough provenance for collectors? I would expect some other evidence such as statements from the awardee, or his family members, or photographic record of a transaction.

I have one large grouping that are the awards of three pilots who surrendered at Kitzingen, on 8 May 45. Of course, the group of photos of the pilots, along with the US lieutenant, from who I obtained the awards and photos, is not considered provenance today. I always thought that was stronger than a dealer's letter, but I guess I am wrong. It is merely heresay, I am told, because the US veteran is dead and nothing was ever prepared in writing.

I see everyone posting crosses with 'provenance' which is a dealer's letter, but always wondered how strong that evidence would be, if held to courtroom standards. It is heresay, to me.

Bob Hritz

[Gran Sasso]

Dont know if this info was already posted: That group was 1st sold by the Hermann Historica auction house app. 15 years ago. Have to dig out my old catalogues, to see what was in it (remember so far only the KC, some original fotos (some fotos were splitted immediately after the auction, one - signed - is now in the collection of a good friend) and the Bundeswehr-Wehrpass).

[Leroy]

Is the letter of a dealer enough provenance for collectors?

Not for me.

[Flemming]

For me, a dealers word (or letter) is not enough.
I would want photographic evidence, or written statement from the original recipient or family...But then again, that would not be 100% fail proof either

/Flemming