Interesting Group ...

[Dietrich Maerz]

IMO, we are looking at a heavily flawed “A TYPE”. The flaws on Anding’s cross can be compared positively to other known examples, in particular the larger blob at the lower end.

Robert

Oh well, sometimes scientific research and a unemotional approach can be helpful also .... I am happy to see how useful some of the dry research I've done can be! This type of thinking and - even worse - publishing got me banned at the dealer's site who sold the group with a K&Q!

Thanks Robert!

[Leroy]

Dietrich,
Is there, in your book (which I don't have here at work), an actual "strip" photo montage which shows, through multiple photos, the actual progression, from beginning to end, of all the beading flaws? It would be helpful, perhaps, to show it again.
Leroy

[frankandfrank]

When did he get the knights cross?

[StefanK.]

When did he get the knights cross?

May 8th 1945


It is very interesting that Anding was awarded the RK one day before the capitualtion but wears the uniform of a Oberleutnant or even Hauptmann on the pictures. So I think the pictures where taken for sure after May 1945.


Stefan

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dietrich,
Is there, in your book (which I don't have here at work), an actual "strip" photo montage which shows, through multiple photos, the actual progression, from beginning to end, of all the beading flaws? It would be helpful, perhaps, to show it again.
Leroy

No, I do not have that.

[Rich G]

Not getting involved in the which/when/where RK debate in this thread but looking at the photos ie. wrapper verses tunic, the tunic photo looks much earlier... Anding appears much thinner in the face than when in the wrapper shots and the DKiG is bright and untarnished yet in the wrapper shot it is heavily toned/tarnished. Would you agree?

Rich

[jujuy]

this is absolutely not the truth.
German POW were "used" to clear minefields (as a lot of frenchs did too) but were not sent throught the field to clean it walking, there is a huge difference in mind. They really sent the germans in bad situations (500 frenchs killed for 1800 germans till 1947) for cleaning the trashy fields they left after and it was a way to get freedom as volunteer.
Sorry in french but nice pics
http://www.cheminsdememoire.gouv.fr/...fr&idPage=3509

Dave is right.
They even used German pow's for walking through known minefields in order to clear the mines.
Many pow's died that way.


Best,

[Robert T.]

How he got a Knights Cross on the day of the capitulation (when the PKZ was already dissolved and in the area of Klessheim) would be an interesting story! Dietrich

In his book "PANZERKORPS GROSSDEUTSCHLAND", Helmut Spaeter has the award date on April 20th 1945.
This web site: http://www.members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/knights.htm also has it on that day.
(We know that the Americans weren't near Klessheim for another 10 days....)

_____________
Robert

[Robert T.]

The book states an award date of April 20th. Newer and definitive research done by Veith Scherzer, published in his book " Ritterkreuzträger 1939 -1945", states a date of 8th of May 1945. This date is based on the actual index cards of the Heerespersonalamt and are indisputable.

At the time of the award, Friedrich Anding's rank was Lt., Adj. Pz.Jg.Abtl. "GD" and the award was made on the Westfront, as noted in Scherzer's book.

Here is was can be found about the last days of the Panzergrenadier-Division "Grossdeutschland":

"By March 1945, the Panzergrenadier Division Großdeutschland had been reduced to around 4,000 men. These escaped by ferry from the collapsing Memel bridgehead. They landed at Pillau and were put straight back into combat. By 25 April 1945, the division ceased to exist, having been completely destroyed in the battles around Pillau. Of the few survivors a few hundred were able to make their way to Schleswig-Holstein and surrendered to British forces. The majority of the men were left behind and were forced to surrender to the Russians where they were to face an often fatal and indefinite amount of time in Russian Forced Labor Camps."

Friedrich Anding got his recommodation for actions on 14th/15th of April against the British forces, so evidently something doesn't shake out with the report above - at least not the timing.

But no matter what, he was awarded the RK on the last day of the war and it is fairly reasonable to assume that he did spend at least some time in British captivity. If not, he was hiding at least for some time.

It would make sense that April 20th is the "real" award date....

[Dietrich Maerz]

Robert,

the official date on the index card is May 8, 1945. Scherzer only goes by that date, which is the approval date (in this case by Doenitz, I guess).

Dietrich

[Leroy]

Both photographs of Anding clearly show his rank as Oberleutnant and neither appears to be a "cut and paste" by the photographer. I would submit that while it is difficult to determine the type of cross (one looking like a K&Q and one looking like an S&L), it is in all liklihood an S&L. The fact that the photos are in 2 different uniforms is very puzzling and would lead one to believe that either they are postwar (which seems improbable, although possible) or that there was at least some momentary respite for Anding in an area where he had access to his own "kit". The book "Soldat!" by Siegfried Knappe (which I highly recommend) gives a very good picture of life at "the end" for a very-much occupied German officer, and from it I have reached the conclusion that it was, indeed, possible for Anding to actually receive an RK and have a few photos taken for posterity.

Although his rank in uniform is Oberleutnant and not Leutnant, I would attribute that to promotion not properly recorded on paper in the "last days", but still effectuated on insignia. Regarding the RK, the Heer personnel office moved from Berlin to "points South" (including, at the very end, Klessheim), with many files, etc., left behind for others to find. Also, it is believed that some Army Groups and Commands DID have at least limited stocks of RK's on hand in the last couple of weeks. I can visualize an award to Anding, a brief time at headquarters for delivery of a Cross and a few photos, and then "back out the door". This is, of course, speculation, but I'm afraid I would not place complete confidence in the actual paperwork trail at that stage of the war.

I would be very surprised if Anding was able to hold on to his cross, whatever kind it was, through surrender and captivity.

[Robert T.]

Both photographs of Anding clearly show his rank as Oberleutnant and neither appears to be a "cut and paste" by the photographer. I would submit that while it is difficult to determine the type of cross (one looking like a K&Q and one looking like an S&L), it is in all liklihood an S&L. The fact that the photos are in 2 different uniforms is very puzzling and would lead one to believe that either they are postwar (which seems improbable, although possible) or that there was at least some momentary respite for Anding in an area where he had access to his own "kit". The book "Soldat!" by Siegfried Knappe (which I highly recommend) gives a very good picture of life at "the end" for a very-much occupied German officer, and from it I have reached the conclusion that it was, indeed, possible for Anding to actually receive an RK and have a few photos taken for posterity.

Although his rank in uniform is Oberleutnant and not Leutnant, I would attribute that to promotion not properly recorded on paper in the "last days", but still effectuated on insignia. Regarding the RK, the Heer personnel office moved from Berlin to "points South" (including, at the very end, Klessheim), with many files, etc., left behind for others to find. Also, it is believed that some Army Groups and Commands DID have at least limited stocks of RK's on hand in the last couple of weeks. I can visualize an award to Anding, a brief time at headquarters for delivery of a Cross and a few photos, and then "back out the door". This is, of course, speculation, but I'm afraid I would not place complete confidence in the actual paperwork trail at that stage of the war.

I would be very surprised if Anding was able to hold on to his cross, whatever kind it was, through surrender and captivity.

An excellent post!!

Here's another example taken from the same book.

Cheers,
_________
Robert

[frankandfrank]

When did Anding the german cross in gold?
Müller-Rocholz no knights cross winner!

[Robert T.]

When did Anding the german cross in gold?
Müller-Rocholz no knights cross winner!

Müller-Rocholz is still listed here; http://www.das-ritterkreuz.de/index_...hword=Rochholz, but I have also read that he was "cancelled" as KC-holder by Veit Scherzer.


When did Anding receive the german cross in gold?


___________
Robert

[Dietrich Maerz]

Anding never got a German Cross, regarding to the Scherzer. Was there one in the group when it was sold?

Mueller-Rocholz also never got a Knights Cross - he was "awarded" by Fellgiebel with the typical Flelgiebel date 8. May 45.