Interesting Group ...

[Dietrich Maerz]

Andy,

Walter Sumpf is listed as a legitimate recipient in the "Scherzer". Award date 12th March 1945. He definetely is a good one!

Fellgiebel is a problem with some. He's know to have "awarded' RK's after the war...Several 100 of 'recipients' listed in the Fellgiebel are no longer listed in the "Scherzer" since no documentation whatsoever could be found in the newly sited records.

[Dave Kane]

The following pictures are a great contrast and serve to illustrate that a professional 'PHOTO OP' sometimes wasn't available...surely at war's end and as early as '42

The Luft. is a studio shot but no RK as early as '42, while the General appears to have taken photos 'post war'...no tunic but wearing a greatcoat..

[Dave Kane]

Greiner

[Don D.]

Dave, is that an EK2/RK conversion in post #32?

[Dave Kane]

It sure is Don!

[Don D.]

Just call me Eagle Eye.

[Robert T.]

Now there are pictures of him in 'full dress' and with a Knights Cross.

It seems pretty clear, given the award date of 8th of May 1945, that those pictures were taken after the war. It also seems pretty clear, to me at least, that he never got an official Knights Cross.
If one reads thru Veith Scherzer's book one will see why this was pretty unlikely - considering the chaos of the last day of the war.

But it is not unusual that legitimate (late) recipients never got a cross.

So what did they do? What did he do?

He got one, as the pictures shows and I'm venturing to say that it is not a K&Q - which is the type offered with the group. It looks (to me at least) more like a S&L. A K&Q is fairly easy recognizable in pictures.
That leaves me as a researcher with the following:

- F. Anding never got a legitimate cross but was a legitimate recipient
- the pictures are made post war and it's not a K&Q IMHO

Even if it is a K&Q in the pictures, he most likely did not get it officially from the Heerespersonalamt or the institution in charge for last 24 hours.

This would mean that there was a private K&Q post war market. Or he got a S&L (what I think he did) and we know that that was not tough at all.

Nevertheless, an interesting group. But IMHO not an awarded cross but a post war buy or whatever.

This article was published in a British militaria magazine (The Armourer) 9 years ago and before Dietrich’s “A&B types” theory.
It seems that a flawed S&L was indeed part of the Anding grouping when it was originally offered back in 1998…. It is interesting to note that even during the final stages of the war, flawed S&L crosses were still available or being awarded.

Cheers,
_________
Robert

[StefanK.]

did anyone save pictures of the group?

Stefan

[Dietrich Maerz]

Very interesting!

The question now is this: is it an A or an B Type? How he got a Knights Cross on the day of the capitulation (when the PKZ was already dissolved and in the area of Klessheim) would be an interesting story!

I forgot who the dealer was! Somebody remembers?

Dietrich

[DKig]

NIEMANN in 2007 sold his awards grouping, if correct, there it is!

[Leroy]

It is interesting to note that even during the final stages of the war, flawed S&L crosses were still available or being awarded.
_________
Robert

And there are examples of pieces with even greater flawing (already discussed on this forum) awarded much earlier. Award date and degree of flawing cannot be perfectly matched, as we don't know when the stamped frames were actually assembled into a final cross or when a cross was shipped to the PKZ or
how the PKZ selected crosses from their storage area for shipment out.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Absolutely true!

However, leaves still the question open how he got this cross on 8. May 1945. From whom? How? Is it an A-Type anyway?

Is it just me or is there a statistically unexplainable accumulation of K&Q crosses in groups that are very late, from soldiers which were in a Sovjet prision camp, were shot down or where there are other circumstances which might make one believe that the original cross might have gone missing and a K&Q was added?

But RK is RK, isn't it?

Dietrich

[Robert T.]

Absolutely true!

However, leaves still the question open how he got this cross on 8. May 1945. From whom? How? Is it an A-Type anyway?

Is it just me or is there a statistically unexplainable accumulation of K&Q crosses in groups that are very late, from soldiers which were in a Sovjet prision camp, were shot down or where there are other circumstances which might make one believe that the original cross might have gone missing and a K&Q was added?

But RK is RK, isn't it?

Dietrich

IMO, we are looking at a heavily flawed “A TYPE”. The flaws on Anding’s cross can be compared positively to other known examples, in particular the larger blob at the lower end.

Robert

[Leroy]

Is it just me or is there a statistically unexplainable accumulation of K&Q crosses in groups that are very late, from soldiers which were in a Sovjet prision camp, were shot down or where there are other circumstances which might make one believe that the original cross might have gone missing and a K&Q was added?



Dietrich

Dietrich, it is NOT just you. Although K&Q crosses are very often seen in later war photos, there are just too many around for there to be a high comfort level, among all collectors, that all now seen were in the wartime possession of the holder.

Then again, I am one of those who believe that very, very many recipients lost their original crosses due to capture..........

[Robert T.]

This document was also part of the grouping when it was sold by DN.
Anding had to get a letter from Dönitz in 1961 to prove that he had won the RK.

Robert