PAB 75 - bronze

[LuckyLuudje]

Thanks Mathias, the rivets seems IMO to be solid and made from cupper (alloy).

Rudiger, I knew you would like it although not KM related.
The catch looks like it has 2 layers, but those are IMO toolmarks.
The guilding is indeed unusual.
I will show a few pictures where I compare the gold with early S&L's and early Deumers. You will see a different colour.

Sofar I am not yet convinced what we are looking at.
Or an extreme early S&L or a different maker.

Sofar I tend to believe the first option.

Many details are different compared to other many 57's from different herstellers like the finish, rivets, number, catch etc. etc.
Also note that the badge doesn't meet the "herstellervorschiften" and has the coulours used like (for example Juncker did) wartime.

Here a comparisson pictures from the golden finish with very early S&L's.

[LuckyLuudje]

And finish compared to Deumers

[Mike Yokum]

I will let the pictures do the talking.

And what a lot of "talking" they do!

Simply amazing badge that is the finest numbered PAB I have ever seen! What a choice LFU this has turned out to be!

I only have my phone, but it appears to me the tank is from a different die than the S&L you compare to. Would you agree?

The rivets remind me of those on my IMO Assman numbered LGAB's and less, but also of Deumer domed rivets on my Heer Para. They also look a bit like Juncker wartime rivets, IMO.

The quality of the badge is of the very finest. Quality only seen on the very earliest 57er manufacture. Thank you very much for sharing it with us Luud.

[LuckyLuudje]

And what a lot of "talking" they do!

Simply amazing badge that is the finest numbered PAB I have ever seen! What a choice LFU this has turned out to be!

I only have my phone, but it appears to me the tank is from a different die than the S&L you compare to. Would you agree?

The rivets remind me of those on my IMO Assman numbered LGAB's and less, but also of Deumer domed rivets on my Heer Para.

The quality of the badge is of the very finest. Quality only seen on the very earliest 57er manufacture. Thank you very much for sharing it with us Luud.

Thanks Mike.

I am not sure if the die is different.
It could be indeed another die made from the same example (working-, master- mother, or whatever die).
But it could also well be that the die was just maintenanced while the other badge was stamped from a "dirty" die with build up debris.

You make a very good point with the Assmann rivets on your numbered LW GAB's.
I just cheched again and the rivets look to be the same size and same material. I think that they are identical. Good eye
Before I didn't pay too much attention to the Assmanns because they usually drilled a small hole so that the rivet doesn't stick out.
And the rivets of (at least mine) Assmanns show traces that it is hammerred while the rivets on this badge show in tact.
I believe you are right that these rivets are the same, only different attached.

But who made this badge?
Could it be Assmann?
The golden finish is different than the Assmanns I know also.
I checked the badge again and noticed the same tool marks on the needle like found on other very early S&L's.
Or is it an extreme early S&L and could it be that Assmann got these rivets from S&L or the other way around or both had the same supplier?

So many questions!
A well, It really doesn't matter that much for me who made it.
Regardless the maker, the (early) quality is what matters.
And this badge is what it is and shows it

[Arthur Spooner]

....the rivets seems IMO to be solid and made from cupper (alloy)...

Are you sure Luud? It looks really soldered to me.

I think I see the border between the rivet and the lot on both rivets.
The shape of the both "heads" looks also different to me.
When they sould be solid than the must made with a special tool to get the
round heads and both must have the exactly same shape.
If they were made other, than they should be more flat.

Some small defects on the head surfaces let me think that it is lot too.
It could be because of the soft lot material.

But its only my opinion.

[LuckyLuudje]

Are you sure Luud? It looks really soldered to me.

I think I see the border between the rivet and the lot on both rivets.
The shape of the both "heads" looks also different to me.
When they sould be solid than the must made with a special tool to get the
round heads and both must have the exactly same shape.
If they were made other, than they should be more flat.

Some small defects on the head surfaces let me think that it is lot too.
It could be because of the soft lot material.

But its only my opinion.

I am pretty sure.

I think that I undestand what you mean.
I only don't know what "lot" means, I only know it translated as "much".
And I think that the camera, light and angle are playing tricks to your eyes.

So I made some pictures of the rivets with a flash (dark here).

[LuckyLuudje]

But the light and angle are also tricking my eyes.
I will show you pictures of an Assmann and the PAB75 and see the different colour.
Witch artificial light they looked the same and I used different light to compare them and realized the base material IS different!
So no "Assmann" rivets.

All the Assmann rivets that I have, do have the same base material as the one on the PAB25.
But there are differences in the way they are tightend.

[Mike Yokum]

Thanks for the update Luud. I'm traveling on business and couldn't look at my LGAB's for clarification.

Now you've piqued my interest in what exactly the Assman badge you used for comparison is! Another numbered PAB???

Or, is that a future LFU???

[Arthur Spooner]

It is often not easy to see everything good on pictures.

I meant solder. Sorry.
It means in German Lot [Lötmetall oder -legierung] = solder.

[Nigel N]

Hi Luud!
I've been comparing the catches on my EK1's!
It would be very helpful to me if you could explain exactly whats going on with your catch.....i see two lines, scored thru the bottom part of the flatwire, is the area between the two lines raised up, higher than the rest of the flatwire, or is it all level??
Thanks
-Nigel

[Nigel N]

I could'nt find the exact same pattern of two lines on any of my S&L EK1's, but one has a single line on the catch, that maybe of some help........015.JPG

016.JPG

At this point, i would be inclined towards the catch being an S&L!!
-Nigel

[Seewolf]

I just compared the tank with the silver PAB 75 from berghof73(Christian) (S&L piece)

There are no differences to find, same with the wreath.
The pin on Luud´s PAB has the typical scratch, found on other S&L pieces. Catch is typical S&L, only the lines at the side are maybe unususal but i can´t remember if we really looked so close to other S&L catches.....

To the rivets....why not using rivets from old stock, even when they are unusual and the same with the gilding.......maybe chemicals from old stock that gives another golden colour.

75% speaks totally for a S&L piece and the unusual 25% can be maybe defined with using older parts (wartime?) from old stock......remember that we maybe look at one of the very first versions of a 75er PAB what has the look of the wartime versions (golden wreath and old silver coloured tank) and not the look that the 57er regularium wants ( bronce wreath AND bronce tank)

[George L]

An usual higher grade PAB! Not sure what to make of that gilt wreath as it should've been either dark bronze or silver.

Here's my badge for reference.

[George L]

Reverse

Notice the cut out of the wreath is totally different and rivets of course. I believe this to be a very early version of this badge.

[LuckyLuudje]

75% speaks totally for a S&L piece and the unusual 25% can be maybe defined with using older parts (wartime?) from old stock......remember that we maybe look at one of the very first versions of a 75er PAB what has the look of the wartime versions (golden wreath and old silver coloured tank) and not the look that the 57er regularium wants ( bronce wreath AND bronce tank)

I think you are right about this and I also think it could be one of the earliest S&L's.

I just got notified about a familiar S&L CCC that has been discussed a lot in the past.
That finish looks very familiar.