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    #1

    DKiG - New fake on the market ???

    Hi guys,

    I found this on an auction site being advertised as an early piece :

    QUOTE
    Versteigere hier ein sehr schönes und gut erhaltenes Originalstück. Es handelt sich um ein Deutsches Kreuz in Gold. Ausführung aus dem Jahr 1957. Das Abzeichen ist in einem sehr guten Zustand wie man auf den Bildern sehen kann. Das Abzeichen besteht aus mehreren Teilen und ist vierfach genietet.
    UNQUOTE

    Frontside ... I imme spot the red ring being very wide and missing the two circles in which the red enamel should be placed in.
    Also, the oakleaves in the EK look really bad, as well as the detail on the EK.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Matthieu; 08-31-2009, 05:45 PM.
    Tags: None
    #2
    Backside ... in my opinion trying to copy a waritme piece ( Zimmerman ).
    Attached Files

    Comment

      #3
      Same seller, same cross, but this time with the swaz .... but being sold as " fine repro ".
      Attached Files

      Comment

        #4
        Backside ... similar setup as the "original 1957".

        I know the majority of our fine community wont be fooled by this. I'm just posting this as a warning for the new collectors in the 57 field .
        Attached Files
        Last edited by Matthieu; 08-31-2009, 05:46 PM.

        Comment

          #5
          Very Funny, it looks like you are reading my mind.

          I was just checking the new form cross and wrote about a page full to a friend with a very long list with things I don't like about the DK.
          I concluded that it is most likely a modified fake.

          After that I noticed the DK with swass for sale from the same seller.
          Very funny to see that this DK seems to have a red painted ring what explains the red paint traces on the wreat and that these rivets seem intact.
          Last edited by LuckyLuudje; 08-31-2009, 06:15 PM.

          Comment

            #6
            Originally posted by Matthieu View Post
            I know the majority of our fine community wont be fooled by this.
            Are you sure?
            I found a similar DKig with a "20" mark in the reference thread!
            Maybe we are just paranoid?

            Comment

              #7
              Hmm, the rivets on the "fine repro" have been modified to accomodate the swastika. Is it a 57er made into a nazi piece or are both total fakes?

              If both are fakes, we must address posts number 31, 32, 33 and 34 in this this reference thread. CLICK

              A DK identical to the one Mathijs posted has been in this frequently visited reference thread since 9/08 without being challenged. This led me to believe this "Zimmerman" was an accepted variant. Based on this reference thread, I would have purchased the DK as a 57 Zimmerman.
              Last edited by mbizy; 08-31-2009, 07:39 PM.

              Comment

                #8
                If i would nor safe my money for my RK i would try to go for it. In my german forum there are a few collectors who have one. IMO this is an accepted variant, made of leftover war parts. All of these pieces have not the S&L quality.
                I don´t have Dietrich´s German Cross book, maybe there´s this 57er variant?

                I like it, not often and easy to find, a more rare variant.

                Is it a 57er made into a nazi piece
                I think so.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Seewolf View Post
                  IMO this is an accepted variant, made of leftover war parts. All of these pieces have not the S&L quality.

                  I like it, not often and easy to find, a more rare variant.
                  I agree!
                  I have the same version (hard to find, I only know 2 pieces), too.
                  They have the same distinctive Zimmermann flaws like the war-version.

                  Regards

                  Daniel
                  Regards
                  Daniel


                  Search:
                  !!! all awards with [L/15] mark !!!
                  Otto Schickle
                  All early 57er pieces

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Hmm ... I was led to believe that both pieces were crap. After checking the database it seems indeed that the 57 piece is a genuine 57er.
                    I assume at some stage one of these had the 57er EK removed & received a swaz instead ( seeing Mike's comment about the rivits ) ???

                    But seeing both pieces with same hardware, made me jump to - what now seems - wrong conclusions about the 57er.

                    I have been so focused on all my S&L pieces, that I forgot that other makers are out there ... and made a complete ass out of myself .
                    Last edited by Matthieu; 09-01-2009, 03:33 AM.

                    Comment

                      #11
                      I have been so focused on all my S&L pieces, that I forgot that other makers are out there
                      Others wifes have nice daughters, too
                      Go for it, would fit perfect in your collection

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Matthieu View Post
                        After checking the database it seems indeed that the 57 piece is a genuine 57er.
                        But seeing both pieces with same hardware, made me jump to - what now seems - wrong conclusions about the 57er.
                        ... and made a complete ass out of myself .
                        If I were you I wouldn't be too sure about this.
                        Accepted doesn't mean that it is "original".

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Originally posted by LuckyLuudje View Post
                          If I were you I wouldn't be too sure about this.
                          Accepted doesn't mean that it is "original".
                          Aha ... opinions are divided . I hope this is the start of a good discussion .... . Gentlemen, state your case .

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Everyone seems to agree that these DK's look like Zimmermans.
                            But as far as I know Zimmerman didn't produce postwar fakes and new form items.
                            But I am not knowledged with postwar stuff, so I fall back on what I do know.
                            And DK's is what I have the least experience with from all the TR items.

                            I will mention my biggest concerns only for now:
                            1-If wartime leftover/dies, I would expect the huge flaw found on later pieces and the dotted date.
                            2-The wreath is far from crisp and I see strange holes that look casted.
                            3-There are red paint? traces on the wreaths. Why?
                            4-I never saw such a crappy "20" mark on a real Zimmerman.
                            5-The EK model doesn't look nicely vaulted and doesn't match any early cross I have seen, but looks like the pieces you can buy on ebay and certain dealers.
                            6-I don't like the damages on the enamel ring.
                            7-I do not like details. Nothing is crisp.
                            8-I do not like the hardware.
                            9-I do not like the backplate, I have seen casted pieces with less bubble holes.
                            10-The finish on every part is not like I would expect from Zimmerman or one of the other herstellers that are known to make New Form DK's.

                            I took some pictures from my wartime Zimmerman and took some pictures from the threads about these Zimmermans and will try to illustrate some of my concerns.


                            The first picture shows the 57 Zimmermans.
                            Notice different (messed with?) rivets on these.
                            The Rivits on the Zimmerman with Swass are all the same.
                            If there is a DK modified, it is IMO the most likely the DK with different rivets!
                            Attached Files

                            Comment

                              #15
                              I agree with Luud on this one. I did not mean to imply that because the DK in the reference thread was accepted for almost a year, that it was original. I don't think that is a safe assumption. All I was saying was that the reference thread was dangerous in that it without calling the pieces out as a fake the DK could be accepted as original and someone (including me) could have bought the one offered as a good DK.

                              Here are some points that are not automatic disqualifiers, but are meant to provoke some thought.

                              1) Are there any other original New Form DK's with maker mark?
                              2) Are there any other New Form awards made by "Zimmerman?"
                              3) Are there any other New Form DK's with this low quality other than collectors market pieces which exhibit entirely different characterstics?
                              4) Is the quality of these pieces consistent with Zimmerman TR period pieces or are just the shapes and sizes similar? One would think, based on the hardware that this is an early piece. Is the quality consistent with other early pieces?
                              5) Are there any other original New Form DK's which appear to exhibit pock marks on the backsides and on the wreaths, giving the impression of casting marks?

                              Comment

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