Godet

[VtwinVince]

This is a very interesting and informative thread. So what time period would orders marked 'JGuS' fall under?

[streptile]

This is a very interesting and informative thread. So what time period would orders marked 'JGuS' fall under?

Thanks Vince,

I agree -- there is more and more good information coming out in here every day.

There was a company named J. Godet & Sohn-- that could have been responsible for the JGuS mark -- in existence pretty much continuously from 1877 through at least 1943. So, in theory, it could be anywhere within that period.

A few questions that remain to be answered could help us narrow it down a bit, and I (and I imagine others) are thinking a lot about what the answers to these questions may be:

• Do the marks 'JGuS' and 'JG&S' indicate a different time period or incarnation of J. Godet?
• Is the GODET•BERLIN mark indicative of J. Godet or Gebrüder Godet (or first one, then the other)?
• Who used which of the various '800' stamps seen on Godet crosses, and when?
• Which EK frame can be tied to which incarnation of the company, and in what period?

I feel like the answers to at least some of these important questions are getting closer to being within our grasp, and I hope that those answers will lead us to a place where we can understand marks on all Godet awards better.

[streptile]

Deumer apparently ceased production activities for the RK in 1941... By a curious coincidence, there may not have been any "Godet" or Zimmermann" RK's made after 1941, either.

That is fascinating.

Gentry, can you help us understand, in a clear and concise way, the RK issue you are exploring with us? As I understand it, it's this:

There was some recently discovered photographic evidence that Deumer made RKs, which was very surprising news to most in the RK hobby. The news was complicated by the fact that an RK on display in a museum (where?) and said to be a Deumer piece, is in fact what is considered a Gebrüder Godet/Zimmermann piece. Absent any known connection between Deumer and Gebrüder Godet, this made no sense whatsoever. But the "Wolfe Conze" connection unearthed by Marshall in this very thread has suddenly cast a new light on the issue. Additionally, there is some circumstantial evidence that perhaps Deumer and Gebrüder Godet RKs were both put out of production in 1941. This may be -- or, interestingly, may not be -- a coincidence.

Is that about the story so far? I'd like for us all to be able to keep up here, and I am not as conversant with the RK issues as I am with the Imperial EK issues.

[gregM]

Somewhere there is a very old thread that showed a breakdown of the various
Godet marks and the approx dates they were used. Of coarse
given what we are learning now, the information may not be reliable.

[Leroy]

Trevor (and at your invitation) - The museum is in Ludenscheid (home of Deumer) and is also the source of the photos of the Deumer shop showing work on RK's. One would hope that their ID of the "Zimmermann" RK as a Deumer product would be accurate, but there is no absolute guarantee of that.

Again, the "Zimmermann" RK and the "Godet" RK are the exact same, with only the core paint being different (the "Godet" used a rough texture paint, the "Zimmermann" a more glossy and smooth paint). The frames (unique in their beading formation at the tips of each arm) are the same and the cores (except for the paint) are the same. Another peculiarity (and possible link) is that both early Zimmermanns and Godets are completely unmarked on the cross itself. The cross in the Ludenscheid museum is unmarked.

Deumer featured, in it's last (1940) catalog, the Ritterkreuz. Unfortunately, the illustration is just a drawing and so the type could not be identified. There was speculation in the past (before the museum photos and cross) that perhaps Deumer produced either the "3/4 ring RK" or the "Schickle RK", both types which disappeared after 1941. Now, we have "evidence" from the museum that Deumer was involved in the production of an RK which was the "Zimmermann/Godet" version. The recent additional discovery, as I mentioned earlier, of a Ludenscheid-obtained Schickle RK with unmarked "Godet" Oakleaves, may be a further clue to a Deumer/Godet link. As a side note, and perhaps indicative that Deumer may have been a supplier to other early RK manufacturers is the existence, on a Deumer sales card, of a Schickle RK, with Oakleaves, brought back by the British General commanding the Shropshire Light Infantry, and now exhibited in that unit's museum in England. (The Oakleaves on that RK match a different set of Oakleaves found on the German Order, also known to have been made by Deumer.) Schickle, of course, was based in Pforzheim. I understand from this current discussion that there could be some linkage between the PLM sold by Schickle, with the pie wedge, and the Godet PLM.

Deumer, of course, is still in business, but (like its neighbors) is not overly receptive to discussing its wartime activities. It does seem, however, from circumstantial evidence, that it had relationships with other firms, especially in the period of the 30's to the early 40's.

[Les]

I feel like the answers to at least some of these important questions are getting closer to being within our grasp, and I hope that those answers will lead us to a place where we can understand marks on all Godet awards better.

The "all" parts is where sorting the proverbial sheep and goats is going to get complicated. Obviously this re-evaluation will have to eventually get around to looking at everything the two "Godet" firms made, and determining who made what. I understand the need to focus on an area that is manageable at first, and then looking at other awards.

Marshall, Trevor....

So far, no one has mentioned one of the details on the top of the 1930 letter masthead. The first line reads "Deutsche Juweliere Sy & Wagner, J. R. Werner, Janus & Friedrich G.M.B.H."

The "Sy & Wagner" name seems to have been gone without anyone remarking on that "connection" although Janus and Friedrich" was picked up relatively quickly.

Comments on what the Wagner name was doing in there?

[Biro]

Ok - I've been digging...

I'm particularly interested in the top line of this document which seems to include Sy & Wagner in the equation somehow.... Marshall

Top of Post no. 60 les.... That one didn't escape me!

There is a Sy-Wagner/Godet connection in one of the EK awards produced by both companies which may well explain the appearance of their name at the top of the letterhead.

I know Trevor is planning to explore that further so I won't steal his thunder, but there is definitely a tie-in of sorts between the two firms.

M.

[streptile]

There is a Sy-Wagner/Godet connection in one of the EK awards produced by both companies which may well explain the appearance of their name at the top of the letterhead.

Right -- it's just one of so many strands that are developing here, but it hasn't gone unnoticed. Just under-reported ... so far.

There is indeed a link between S-W and Godet EKs that Marshall and I both discovered separately, independently of one another. But I'm not sure what exactly it means at this point. I will lay it out here soon.

By the way, does anyone have anything -- preferably an EK -- that can be tied to Janus & Friedrich?

[streptile]

Somewhere there is a very old thread that showed a breakdown of the various Godet marks and the approx dates they were used. Of coarse given what we are learning now, the information may not be reliable.

Hi Greg,

I sure would like to see that thread, but I haven't been able to locate it.

[gregM]

I did a search also and couldn't find it. It's an old one from maybe 2005.
I'll keep searching.

[Biro]

I think I've found the last bit of proof that a coalition of sorts was formed between Sy & Wagner, J H Werner, and Janus & Friedrich.

A report from a Dutch newspaper dated 10 December 1929.

Presumably, Wolf Conze of Deumer then joined the party in 1933, although in what capacity noone has really made clear to me yet. Certainly, according to Deumers website, Conze also... "lead Deumer through WW2"... so that could be explored further.

Remember, this is reported in 1929, in The Netherlands, so the Berlin 'alliance' pre-dates that - and also the invoice I posted earlier showing all three names at the top of the letterhead (which I've posted again below for ease of reference).

It will be important for the translation from Dutch to English to be contextually accurate (particularly the last couple of paragraphs), so perhaps one of our Dutch friends can provide that for us?.

Marshall

[streptile]

Marshall!

Amazing finds. Where are you coming up with this stuff?

I will ask Ben to help with the translation; stand by.

I think I've found the last bit of proof that a coalition of sorts was formed between Sy & Wagner, J H Werner, and Janus & Friedrich.

...Presumably, Wolf Conze of Deumer then joined the party in 1933,...

Remember that Wolf Conze joined as co-owner of Gebrüder Godet, not J. Godet, with whom we are dealing in this particular instance. By 1933 they were well distinct from one another, in my view.

Remember, this is reported in 1929, in The Netherlands, so the Berlin 'alliance' pre-dates that

It needn't pre-date it by much. If this is news, it could be fairly up-to-date. And this is December 1929.

[Montgomery Burns]

jip ,,godet shares where put in to Sy and Wagner ,JH Werner and janusch & friedrich coalition company ..

Deutsche juweliere ,Sy and Wagner ,JH Werner ,Janusch & Friedrig GMBH

that is what it said

as an example fore coalition firms in Holland who did the same as the German firms to increase sale ..


and van Kampen beheer did get an larch interest in that,,,, GMBH company or the NV Dutch Chain ..not sure .

I wood advice to get the whole newspaper part on photograph,
,so we can read the rest
and make no mistake that things are put out off association or perspective

sadly it looks like the famous company's are just becoming hollow names in a increasingly financial world










.

[Leroy]

...there may not have been any "Godet" or Zimmermann" RK's made after 1941, either.

I need to correct this statement. There are '20' marked (on the frame) Zimmermann RK's, indicating at least assembly of frames and cores into final crosses after 1941. Who actually did that final parts assembly is unknown, but it was likely Zimmermann itself, using parts which may well have been produced by Deumer earlier. Still, the award of Zimmermann RK's appears to be predominantly in the early years of the war, as earlier stated, and Godet RK's simply don't seem to appear at all after 1941.

[streptile]

Kay, Thank you for the valuable summary of the contents of the article .

Thanks to a friend, we also have this direct translation of the important paragraph, which seems to expand and confirm our growing understanding of the situation:

The report recalls the union of Berlin jewelers, the companies of Sy & Wagner, I.H. Werner,and Janus & Friedrich, into a single German company named: “German Jewelers Sy & Wagner, I.H. Werner, Janus & Friedrich, Ltd.”

All I. Godet & Sohn A.G. shares were also bought out by [literally: "carried over to" or overgedragen] German Jewelers, so this jeweler became part of the corporation as well.

It seems that we were correct to suspect that J. Godet, having become a publicly traded company or Aktiengesellschaft, was then bought out by (and subsumed into) "German Jewelers," a union that also seems to have had J.H. Werner as a majority partner. In any case, this is my reading of the copy.

I suspect this happened in 1929, as surmised earlier.

I further guess that Eugene Godet, having been dispossessed of his family's company (perhaps against his will, by a purchase of stocks) then started Gebrüder Godet in competition with "German Jewelers." All this, too, had been surmised earlier in this thread, but I think this offers some evidence in support of what have been, until now, essentially guesses.