1870 EK1 makers..

[Tim Tezer]

Good God, what have I done? Bill is out $10,000 for rental on an SAE-2010 whatsit (not to mention the bajillion kilowatts of electricity if probably consumed), and meanwhile everyone else is p***ed off at each other!

Tony's point, that the silver content mark means "not below" that level, is a good one. It may completely invalidate my idea that the items should test at .875. I would think that silver was relatively expensive, and some effort would have been made to keep the silver content accurate and not go way over, but maybe that can't be proven conclusively.

Maybe someone out there has a textbook original Wagner, AND has access to an SAE-2010 assaying machine, and would be willing to provide a comparison. But that's easy for me to say - I'm not the one paying for it.

Tim

[Eric Stahlhut]

Sae 2010

Hell, maybe we could pool our resources in order to rent one and meet up for a week (or two).

I've got a lotta iron crosses (mainly '14s)... we could establish an average silver content for many many makers! THAT could piss off a LOT of people in Latvia, Poland, and Germany!

[Bill M]

"Those are some curious readings there. I wonder what it would show if you tested a US silver coin which is of a known composition and purity. I am also curious about the more modern elements such as paladium.Tony"

--Tony, I thought palladium was just the name of a club in New York City.
I wonder how a 1967 half dollar would do?

"My understanding, was that the silver mark meant "not under" what-ever and with the binding metals of the time..." (T&K)

--This occurred to me as well, which would certainly render all info useless except that of the alloying materials.

--OOP, did it take me that long to write so little? Tim addressed the same issue, and Eric got a word in! I must be getting tired...

[Eric Stahlhut]

That the only way to determine the authenticity could be through determining whether or not modern day alloys are present..

Or perhaps testing for the presence of an alloy that is no longer used?

[Brian S]

I'll try not to preach and stay to the facts.

If I'm not mistaken, and I'm not a metal expert, your machine breaks down the metal to the elements. All earth bound things break down to the element table don't they? All these elements existed long before 1870 even if one hadn't been identified it still existed.

However, a high concentration of an element not identified in 1870 and used in the cross might point to a problem if it appeared the element had been used in some concentrated form when to that point it had not been isolated and used industrially.

The way I would see this machine working for you is to find an 1870 cross of the J and I type and find two of nearly exactly the same composition of elements. That would indicate they came from exactly the same source.

I had called for an expert on elements long ago to try to breakdown the paints on the RK's. Seems to me the metals might be all over the place as the weights of RK's seem to illustrate. But paint might be a clue. I'd read that old master painting experts used machines to identify the composition of the paints and were able to point out forgeries.

[Tiger 1]

Good morning Bill,

The Palladium rocked! And it was an element identified on one of the composition sheets.

I don't think that the 1967 half dollar would do because you know as well as I do that it is a clad composite coin. Maybe try a pre-1965 homogeneous 90%silver alloy coin as a base line to determine the accuracy of the readings. In effect the US silver coin would act as a calibrating factor of known composition. It was just a suggestion as I found some of the readings mildly surprising.

We're all here to share our finds, express our affirmations or reservations, contribute our knowledge and experiences and to learn from each other. Butting heads and egos is counterproductive in the search for truth. I'm sure you are well aware of the award numbers and in no way did I question your intelligence. I was using the population numbers comment as a touch stone so to speak of how rare original examples are. Nothing there to get anyones shorts bunched up.

I'm not sure if your comment "--Wait a second Tony, gotta run down to the safe..." was for me or not. If it was, what is your point?

Tony

[Bill M]

"I'm not sure if your comment "--Wait a second Tony, gotta run down to the safe..." was for me or not. If it was, what is your point?"
-- No point, I was forming a thought in reply to your post and I realised I had some old coins in my safe. I am a little addle-brained lately. You were online and it was meant as an 'instant message' of sorts, but then I got caught up in the other posts
"...as well as I do that it is a clad composite coin. Maybe try a pre-1965 homogeneous 90%silver alloy coin as a base line to determine the accuracy of the readings"
--Actually I thought that they were silver alloy, I have one (a 68) in from of me (from my safe ) - no copper on the rim - you sure it's pre-65? I also have a 1944 Liberty Dime. I guess I gotta do a little research on these before I go.
--I musta missed Palladium in Science class. Think I saw 'Dire Straits' there way back, though...
--And don't sweat the small stuff, keep posting all the detailed info you can. Award numbers, etc etc. I just got mad about the spirit in which you were paraphrased.
"The way I would see this machine working for you is to find an 1870 cross of the J and I type and find two of nearly exactly the same composition of elements."
--Anybody wanna lend me their I Wagner?
--Ok, the ideas are coming. Isn't there a resident metal-man (as opposed to medal-man) over on the Third Reich forums?

[Tiger 1]

Bill,

No problem! The only time I start to sweat is when my hair is on fire. I'm glad that doesn't happen too often anymore.

Brian is a very passionate collector with a different perspective. That is a credit to his principles.

Sometimes this forum is like a mirror, we see ourselves in it. Occasionally we see clearly where we're at, sometimes we see where we have been and many times we see where we would like to be. For most of us it's a hobby. Enjoy!

Best regards,

Tony

[Bill M]

"But paint might be a clue. I'd read that old master painting experts used machines to identify the composition of the paints and were able to point out forgeries."
--Actually I would rather have gone this route from the get-go. At one point I was researching into this when I was spending all that time trying to get my hands on a real 1813 EK1 a few years ago (never did - gave up). I didn't find a way to have this done, but this way would be key as modern paints have all sorts of crap in them that didn't exist back then...
--Anybody?

[Brian S]

Getting your hands on a few examples of each of the EK's from 1813 right to 1957 and maybe a few recently produced Flochs would really help. That would be a fascinating experiment to see all the outputs from the paint analysis. Of course that too could be another dead end of a pile of totally various elemental mixures, but like your metal analysis, until you try, you don't know.

Here is a link I've kept that explains museum art forgery detection using modern methods. I had tried to get this idea up regarding the RK but no one had one in their closet to utilize.

http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/journa.../03lesney.html

[Tony & Kaiser]

Sometimes this forum is like a mirror, we see ourselves in it.

Like this?

<img src=http://www.kaisersbunker.com/kaiser/k40.jpg>

By the way, this is what I wake up to every morning.........feeling like someone is watching me..........open my eyes and.........

[Tiger 1]

Tony,

My what a big nose you have.........

What can I say. I thought I was the only one with a circus fun house mirror in my bathroom.

Tony

[Bill M]

--Yes, a spectroscope would be very handy and could very well solve the mystery. That article was very helpful and I went back into my 'favorite places' archive and pulled out a few others. Some of these methods I've read about could probably authenticate any EK from an 1813 to a Knight's Cross if the tester knew what to look for. Why hasn't anyone seriously attempted this? I would have thought that the 3rd Reich guys would have tried this by now with their S&L RK's.
--There are places that do this type of thing, and I am sure there is somewhere in NYC to do it. If a place is found I can use 2nd class 1870's but I'd need some fake EK's for comparison...
--I need help, please at least keep the ideas coming...

[Brian S]

It was the S&L RK that made me think of this. Also, the Round Corner.

I've heard SEBA has almost as much cash lying around as Microsoft. Maybe he could tap into some of those billions and fund a project like this. I'm sure one could be rented. Problem is getting all the crosses into one location to 'work' on them within a few day period.

[Bill M]

--I've already posted a notice in the 'Local Chapters' forum that requests a 'roll call' of NYC-area members. I want to see how many Imperials, or just plain Iron Cross collectors are in the area in case I find a place. I don't know about renting one, unless we kidnap the scientist who I suspect we'll need to run the tests.
--I also asked for help in the 'Crosses of the Wehrmacht' (Haven't been in there in a while, saw a nice Wachtler & Lange EK2!)
--If a method like this could prove/disprove high-end Iron Crosses from any era, it would be well worth taking up a collection for if the cost was high...

"I've heard SEBA has almost as much cash lying around as Microsoft."
--Hmmmm, so where have you been to happen to hear that?

--Come to think of it, maybe a lab would do it on the cheap for a
non-for-profit organization such as ourselves...