1870 EK1 makers..

[Bill M]

Tony,
--Regarding the stepped cores and prinzen items in general, I am admittedly hazy. I certainly haven't seen vast quantities of these flood the marketplace, but then again - I am not really looking for them. I was not in the mix in the 70's or 80's to compare their availability, but the internet has made previously scarce things more common (and not always by nefarious means). The only stepped prinzen 1870 EK item that I can recall with real clarity is/was in Jody Beltram's collection as a 2nd class. My own (2nd) is not stepped. I didn't mean to say all stepped EK's are good, just that it's a good sign. My experience is too meager to be able to give a definitive yes or no on these.
--Good points on the change in systems well before the jubilee, but I hadn't really subscribed to the thought that my example was a jubilee era cross. I am obviously trying to find out here is if the type of 'J' cross that has been so far accepted by many to be genuine (George's, Claudio's and mine), are not. The thing that keeps me going on this is that they are so obviously not of the same low quality as the hordes of 'sloppy J's' showing up on ebay.

[Bill M]

OK, the results...
--The column that interests us is the leftmost.
--95.06099%, that's 25+% above sterling. What the hell? He then took out a piece of sterling silver for reference and it showed 92.6xxxx% This confused and alarmed me, the 'say-it-aint-so' part of my brain gave me hope in that it didn't test for sterling - something was wrong. Lotsa little trace elements in there too, but I'll get to that later....
--I suggested that I bring back one of the 1914 '800's' that I had discussed with him earlier. As he was becoming intrigued, Rob (the assayer) said the next test was 'on the house'.

[Bill M]

--So I bring in an unmarked for maker, '800' cross aaaannnd...
--Almost 98% silver? Now this one's a shiny sumbitch as you can see, so I can see how it may have a high silver content. Did it have a higher content than my Godet 800 (which I brought along with me just in case)?

[Bill M]

--The readings on this one, although still as confusing as the others, had me at the very least convinced of Godet's quality.
--Again a piece of hallmarked sterling was used and again the error margin was within a percentage point. Another characteristic of the sterling is that it was basically silver and copper, without the myriad of trace elements - much like the Godet. I will get a readout of that when I go back (yes, I am going back).
--There was a theory offered to me as to why the readings may have been off. This was highly irregular, but it may have been that the Germans had used an alloying metal that the machine was reading as silver. In one instance when reading the 'unmarked 800', there appeared on the graph an unidentified element which the assayer had to take additional steps to identify. It was rhodium, but unfortunately the system could not ascertain its percentage.
--I am going to take a break now. As I said, I am going to go back to the assayer. The plan right now is to bring a '935' EK1 and possibly an 1870 EK2 (if it can be done). I am thinking of examples of modern and antique silver that I may have for additional reference points. Hell, maybe I'll just bring in the other 3 1914 EK1's.
--Does anyone have any ideas or insights regarding this info, pertinent questions for the tester?

[Brian S]

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[Bill M]

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[Tiger 1]

BIll,

Those are some curious readings there. I wonder what it would show if you tested a US silver coin which is of a known composition and purity. I am also curious about the more modern elements such as paladium.

Tony

[Brian S]

And what history does tell us is that there are too many of these chasing collectors.

[Bill M]

--Wait a second Tony, gotta run down to the safe...

[Bobby lee]

Hi Tiger, I don't mention specific names of dealers as it has come back to haunt me from time to time. The marked Prinzen and an I Wagner were in the same case as obviously bad 1914 crosses from Mecklenberg, Wurttemberg, Lippe. The dealer also had a PLM and two 1939 Knoght's crosses. The Godet was sold from a well known dealer and shown to me and several other collectors. The "Law" that an item from a well known, big-time dealer must be good seemed to apply. None of my fellow collectors liked the cross. Two fairly well known collector/dealers from Germany didn't like any of the oldr IC's they saw. I have known Tim Ericson for nearly 20 years and he is a very honorable dealer with a good reputation. I stop by his table and looked at a nice group to a Professor ( I was one) but did not see the 1813 you mentioned. I missed several things at the show as I was very busy on the selling end.

[Tony & Kaiser]

Uh....I am cautious about stepping in here, (not qualified) but I am curious how we can "assume: that silver from 1870 (or 1914 for that matter) would be exactly .935 or what-ever. My understanding, was that the silver mark meant "not under" what-ever and with the binding metals of the time, if they came within .75 I think that was amazing. Germans were famous for the combining of metals,like Tombak (copper and zink). I think the fact that a .800 EK rolls in at 98% silver using CSI technology is amazing, but I am really not all that surprised. At the time, that EK might have tested at .800 as I am reasonably sure they did not have a SEA-2010 Element Monitor. But Bill, I commend you with all I am capable of for taking these to get scanned, I think it was facinating. T

[Eric Stahlhut]

I apologize for the preaching but I'm really conflicted here on this forum by the lack of interest in history and the overwhelming desire to "get one".

Hey Brian,

Lighten up!

This is a Forum for COLLECTORS. The name of this thread is 1870 EK1 makers.
Please don't insult your fellow forumites by implying that they aren't aware of the human aspect behind these awards.

BTW, what was your motivation for collecting Imperial? Let me guess: it was someone named 'Mutti'!

Best regards,

e~

P.S. Nice medal bar, but doesn't belong in a thread concerning EK1 makers. Focus, man! Focus!

This is a GREAT thread.

[Brian S]

Eric, that Mutti comment really pisses me off.

[Eric Stahlhut]

Please don't be angry, Brian

The way I see this thread evolving has nothing to do with concensus at all. Posters seem to be relating their particular experiences with this award and some people are actually taking steps in order to establish some sort of criteria for determining the authenticity of this particular award. Perhaps not perfectly,
but at the very least it is a start.

[Bill M]

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