1870 EK1 makers..

[Klaus O.]

Tim, your idea sounds great. I will ask around if there are jewellers here in Spain (Barcelona) who can do it. Unfortunately I won't be able to have this test done very soon, because I will be leaving for vacations next weekend (3 weeks vacations... sounds good, isn't it? not like you Americans are used to have...

Ciao,

Claudio

[Tony & Kaiser]

My very good friend RKHunter once mentioned somewhere here that he bought a "simple assayer's kit." to confirm the silver content on a badge. He said it is available at coin shops etc and will determine .800 .925. .935 etc etc.

Rick L once mentioned a "lick" test but I have no idea what that is but I "suspect" its somewhat less accurate. Tony

[Tim Tezer]

I suspect the "lick" test isn't so accurate. It probably works something like this: First, you lick the item. If it slaps you, it's pure. If it giggles, it's 75% pure, if it moans it's 50% pure, and if it licks you back, it's completely impure.

Tim

[Brian S]

If you hear it moan, please never PM me again, you're in need of some serious help If it licks you back, let me know where I can get one please

[Bill M]

--Called a few places today with no luck. I visited one local coin-guy who said he could do it, but he said that the acid test would be inconclusive in determining between 875 and 925. He said that he'd need a sample of the metal to test it that accurately. He was kind of an older gent, so I figure that maybe he wasn't up to speed with current technology.
--I plan to make a few calls tomorrow, but I'm still not too mobile since my surgery and there aren't many places in walking distance, so my options are few for now...

[Eric Stahlhut]

Hi,


Here's a better pic of a Prinzen stepped core marked J that I lifted from a previous post. I tend to lean toward the theory that J marked awards are made
later than the I marked awards. As far as silver content is concerned: what is the equivalent of .875? 13 or 14?

[Bill M]

--14 is 87.5 percent silver.

[Eric Stahlhut]

The Prinzen pictured above is a 14 Loth with an umlaut on the O.

[Bobby lee]

Hey Guys, for what it's worth, I just got back from the SoS show in Louisville and saw 7 IC 1st including 2 prinzen, One IC was marked 'Godet', Three 'I. Wagner" and one 'J. Wagner' One of the prinzen was a nice 'stepped' cross marked with a crown and half-moon on the reverse. It was the opinion of all the collectors and non-owning dealers that I talked to that they were all bad. I won't even get into the IC 1813's that were there. These things obviously are mating and reproducing themselves.

[Bobby lee]

I guess I should have mentioned that it was 1870 Ic's I was looking at.

[Eric Stahlhut]

I guess I should have mentioned that it was 1870 Ic's I was looking at.

And that leaves us exactly back at the point that many of the WW2 members
are at. Oooff!

[Biro]

And that leaves us exactly back at the point that many of the WW2 members
are at. Oooff!

Yep - they are currently X-RAYING RK cases to determine authenticity, so this silver testing lark - while not quite comparing with that for dedication - is well worth the effort!!

[Bill M]

--Ok, I've got something. I have to take a few pictures to continue the story, but here's the start of it... Don't raise your hopes too high for a conclusion as the findings so far only bring up more questions, but those questions may lead us to the answers we are looking for.
--I located a precious metals refining company a few towns over and the owner agreed to help me in my research (for a small assaying fee). We discussed the acid test and his opinion was similar to that of the old gent at the coin shop. It was of no consequence anyway, because the company used a computer based Element Monitor called a SEA-2010 - in his opinion a far more accurate testing medium.
--I went on over and the guy was very interested as his dad was a WW2 vet (brought home a Luger but his dad forced him to turn it in over at the police station!). We talked about the German system and how it differed from our own, the Loth mark that he'd never seen and other small talk while he readied the machine.
--He put the 1870 over a type of iris and closed a soup-bowl type lid over it.
On the computer screen was a graph where elemental contents spiked to varying degrees - the whole process took a couple of minutes. I definitely did not expect to see what was on the printout...

[Tiger 1]

I'm going to stick my 2 cents in right about here. I did put my flak vest on so feel free to shoot back if I'm out of line.

I'm a fairly newer member here and I haven't established an on going rapore with many of the members here. Yet. I plan on sticking around and that will change. I'm a bit more conservative in what I personally accept as genuine period and as genuine examples. My standards are my own and I am tough on myself and my criteria for what I will put in my personal collection. My pocket book is usually thin and I can't afford to pay for fakes or lawyers so my collecting course is cautious. I hope that I remain civil and polite when I comment on others examples. I do not bear any malice with my comments. It's just how I see it and it is only my studied opinion. So bear with me if I say something that may seem to be contrary to some other beliefs. I am always open to learning something new.

I 've been looking at and for good 1870 and 1813 EKIs for quite some time now. What I have come up with is that original award examples are RARE regardless what anyone says. Period commercial examples are not much more prevelant and are themselves very scarce to rare. This is contrary to the numbers of of crosses we now see on the market. In almost 40 years of collecting EKs I have been fortunate to have owned 6 1870 EKIs. Four of the six were genuine and two were altered into something that they were not originally. Some lessons are paid for dearly but that is the lot of any serious collector. Sometimes we all make mistakes.

Bill M. mentioned my Godet 1870 EKI in comparison to the Kaiser's unmarked cross. Bill specifically compared the cores. They are the same and the Kaiser's unmarked cross without the side hooks is a known award piece versus my Godet marked period example which may or may not be an award piece. Specific information is sadly lacking in this area. We must keep in mind that the core molds used by Godet and Wagner may have been cleaned up or newly manufactured for renewed production of EKs for the 25 year Jubilee celebration requirements. This could account for differences in details between earlier and later period examples. The core molds were be used to form the hollow cavities in the oiled sand prior to pouring the molten iron during the casting process. The original molds may have been misplaced, damaged or deemed a bit crude for the new industrial age of the time.

A logical problem arises with the LOTH, LOTHE and LOTIG markings on later Jubilee and later era pieces. It is my understanding and accepted by older collectors that the Germans transitioned from the Loth scale for measuring silver purity to the current parts per thousand method ie 800, 900, 935 etc sometime around 1875. Twenty years before the Jubilee. About this same time the metric measuring system displaced the old Rheinland foot scale. The sizes also changed slightly. So it would be safe to say that the later Jubilee era EKs with a LOTH style purity mark would not follow accepted practises of that later time frame. Either that or there are a ton of early crosses on the market now. IMO highly unlikely. Again please remember the rarity of the EKs we're discussing. Depending on whose population figures we choose to accept we arte talking about 1300-1400 period EKIs. Rare by anyones standard considering how many have been lost and how many have survived the last 130 years.

If I understand Bill's statement correctly on stepped cores for prinzens; Bill and I disagree on stepped cores being "good" on any prinzen other than an 1813. I have not seen any stepped core EKs that were later than 1813 that IMO were genuine. The market has been in recent years awash with stepped core prinzen EKs that have been variously dated 1813, 1870 and 1914 with no difference in construction details or for that matter "aging". Many seem to have come out from the cave in desert. There seems to be way many more of these examples now available on the market than ever were available in the late 60s, the 70s or the 80s. Where did they all come from suddenly?

Tim (Tamerlane) the additional indistinct letter on Loth is an "e" for LOTHE. You can see this particular example in Heyde's book as example C23 with a corresponding remark about this in the text on page 13. Another monkey wrench in this discussion. Here again it may or may not be proper German today but in the mid 1800s spelling variations were not unknown. As people began to be more literate the spellings became more or less standardised later.

In the same vein this move to standardisation could account for the shift from using the Roman "I" as the "J" in earlier trademarks to the later use of Jos. Here is where I don my flak vest. IMO the correct mark for early EKIs by Wagner would be the I. Wagner mark with 14 Loth(e). I don't know how to prove this other than the J. Wagner mark is fairly new in my observation and is not mentioned in early EK references. Am I stating for sure that the "J" Wagner mark is no good? No I'm not. But I personally have serious reservations about the the comparitively vast numbers of this type of marking on the numerous 1870 EKIs that seem to have surfaced on the market in recent years.

I am not adverse to museum type copies in place of genuine items that will never be on the market. Rare items such as the Grand Crosses and the Stars to the Grand Cross can only be museum copies as the originals are all accounted for. In my own collection I have two very good museum COPIES of both a Grand Cross and the Star to the GC. I personally find this to be acceptable as an example but not the original. We are seeing major inroads by the fakers reproducing not only the rarer items but even the more mundane and "common" ones. This leaves a very dangerous field for us to tread as collectors. This problem is rampant in Third Reich collectables and it is getting to be so for the rarer and more desirable Imperial era items also. Ultimately we must all do our own homework and be confident in our own descisions.

Having said all this I would advise caution with the "J" marked EKs. In my opinion the jury is still out on these. The old collecting adage of never say never and never say always applies here.

Best regards and good hunting!

Tony

[Tiger 1]

Hey Guys, for what it's worth, I just got back from the SoS show in Louisville and saw 7 IC 1st including 2 prinzen, One IC was marked 'Godet', Three 'I. Wagner" and one 'J. Wagner' One of the prinzen was a nice 'stepped' cross marked with a crown and half-moon on the reverse. It was the opinion of all the collectors and non-owning dealers that I talked to that they were all bad. I won't even get into the IC 1813's that were there. These things obviously are mating and reproducing themselves.

Bobby Lee,

Who had the Godet and the I. Wagner EKIs? I must of missed looking at those at the show.

There was one exceptional 1813 EKII from about 1830. Tim Eriksen had it for sale. It was a beauty!

Tony