S-w ek1

[streptile]

Some months ago, someone posted a thread with an engraved EK1 marked for S-W (Sy & Wagner, probably). While looking at the cross I noticed that the crown and W on the obverse core looked exactly like those on the 1870 Type B Godet EK1.

After a bit of trawling through dealers' sites, I bought a few 1914 S-W EK2s. I photographed the reverse cores of the S-W EK2s and compared them to my two 1870 Type B Godet EK2s and determined that:

For their 1914 EK2s, S-W used the same reverse core mold, and the same obverse core mold with the exception of the date (which was changed to '1914') as Godet 1870s.

This can plainly be seen in the following two illustrations. In the top row we see the reverse of two Godet Type B 1870 EK2s. Below these we see the reverses of two S-W 1914 EK2s:



Here again we can see this similarities on the front. Top row, two Godet Type B 1870 EK2s. Below, two S-W 1914 EK2s:



What I wanted next was an S-W marked EK1 with what I now considered to be their earliest core, a sand-cast Type B Godet core with the date changed to 1914.

A few weeks ago, this beauty appeared on a dealer site during a Friday update. I grabbed it, and it arrived this weekend. I'm very pleased with it. All comments welcome:







(The photomontages above were first shown in another thread, HERE. I believe my EK1 shown above is what the other cross -- now destroyed -- in that thread used to look like. Also, the Type B in the upper left is now property of another forum member.)

[Christopher]

Wow you have some very handsome crosses there.
Very interesting information! What made you look into this, or how did it come about?

[Mike Kenny]

Hi Trevor,

I have the same core in an S-W EK1 with "standard" S-W hardware.

This is the first time I have seen an S-W with an "oval" hingeplate - live and learn!

Very interesting connection to the 1870EK2s. I wonder what the implications are?

Regards
Mike

[streptile]

Wow you have some very handsome crosses there.
Very interesting information! What made you look into this, or how did it come about?

Thanks Christopher. As I said, I just noticed the core similarities. Some months ago I was reading this thread:

Engraved EK1

I posted my observation in that thread. After that, I decided to track down some of my own crosses to post a thread on my own, which is what I've done here.

It's a truly fascinating subject to me, and gives me some idea about some of the very first EKs made during WWI.

[streptile]

Very interesting connection to the 1870EK2s. I wonder what the implications are?

Mike,

Thank you for your post.

I wonder about the implications, too. As we know, the Type B 1870s are really just presumed Godets. The reasons for the tentative maker attribution are explored in the BDOS article HERE, and I know of some additional evidence linking the Type B's to Godet. However, I now wonder if perhaps Godet was not the only maker of the Type B.

I think it merits further exploration.

[Biro]

Well spotted Trevor...

I made the same observation over on GMIC in this old thread about the 1914 S-W ek1 owned by our very own Brian S and the Type B 1870 ek1 awarded to the Kaiser.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopi...ndpost&p=19426

Marshall

[gregM]

Very interesting thread, Trevor.

Here is a Godet marked 1870 type B that belongs to Tony (Tiger1)

[Roglebk]

Bloody good work Trev! Frames of Tonys 1870 Godet EKI does not seem to match the 1870 Type B EKII's at all but what about the 1914 S-W's?? Guess the Type B's frames are a bit smaller than the S-W's but could you get close ups of the inner corners anyway?

[streptile]

Ah, thanks guys. Marshall, well done a long time before me. Sascha W. also made this observation some time ago. I guess it just wasn't widely disseminated.

Greg, I was looking for that photo of Tony's Godet EK1 to post, thanks.

I am interested in anyone's thoughts on the implications of this fact.

Marshall, I'll pull in a quote from your GMIC post here for the sake of completeness:

I believe the original [1870 Type B] dies ... were reworked in 1914 either by or for Sy & Wagner, and that therefore the dies ... started life in 1870, possibly originally as a Godet product.

I would just add here that these sand-cast cores were made with molds rather than dies, which are easier to duplicate and modify than dies.

[Biro]

Of course the term 'dies' was not the right word for me to use back then... but hey - it was four years ago - and near the beginning of my collecting life.

You get the picture.

Whatever the scenario, I think there is no doubt that the 'template' for the 1870 version was altered/modified/whatever you like for use in 1914.

A good frame analysis would be interesting... but more-so some measurements.

I have done a quick comparison using my Godet marked EK1 and your 1914, but the wear makes it a little hard to be sure of much.

There are certainly similarities...

Feel free to use my one in any further analysis...

Marshall

[streptile]

Marshall, that is a fine-looking Godet you show. I'd love to see the reverse.

[Brian S]

Trevor, you are correct about S-W being early with the oval hardward. My grandfather was awarded the EKI and it was an S-W in the first months of the War. It cracked, almost looks like yours was too. There are some differences which may be due to the crude casting process.

But this one I know to be one of the earliest EK1's of WWI.

[streptile]

Ah, very interesting Brian! I did see that one in the thread over at GMIC that Marshall linked to. Do you have an award date for it?

I just love this EK1. It lives in a case that looks identical to the one you show there, too.

[Brian S]

I don't know the award date. But he was in battle, a general, and on the Western front on the first day of war so you can assume very quickly.

[streptile]

Adding this "Type A" 1914 core to this thread for ease of future reference.

Just as the above crosses contain reworked 1870 Type B cores, the below cross has a core that is a reworked 1870 Type A. The reverse is identical to the Type A, while the obverse is obviously a new design inspired by the Type A -- the crown is very, very similar. The main difference are in the number of jewels in the crown's headband. The method of construction and finish is also consistent with the 1870 Type A's, with a sand cast core and silver frames. This one is marked 'WuS'.









Interestingly, an 1870-series cross with this core obverse (and the 1870 date) has also surfaced. This cross, which can be seen HERE, was almost certainly a WWI-era replacement piece.