Bavarian pilot´s badge by Poellath

[Rick Research]

The markings

KARLPÖLLATH
SCHROBENHAUSEN
SILBER

[Rick Research]

And, still 500% from Tony's badge, the catch and reverse of the bottom bow's "duck feet"

[Sonderkommando]

Okay Gentlemen,
I have finally had a reply from my email I sent to Carl Poellath and here it is........


Since beginning of buisiness in the year 1778 the company is always traded under Carl Poellath.

Best regards

Dietmar Wuka
Vertrieb


So this backed up by the fact that I found an old catalogue of theirs from 1908 tells us that the company has never traded as anything other than Carl Poellath! Either there was another company trading as "Karl Pollath" in the same city making the same thing with virtually the same name, or.....

Somebody is faking these things using the name "Karl Pollath" to avoid being prosecuted for violating a registered trademark.
I have searched high and low for any reference to any company that ever existed with the name "Karl Pollath" and there is absolutely nothing that even suggests there was such a company!
I don't know what else to say other than does anybody have any other badges or stickpins, etc. with the name spelt as "Karl Pollath" or did this company ONLY produce two flight badges (I don't think so!!!)

Regards,
Brett

[stogieman]

Interesting!

This thread is getting very interesting.....

[Rick Research]

Based on my own experience with American businesses handling remote "ancient history, this is a business, where's the money now" research requests, I wouldn't set too much store by what somebody who may have only been there a short time and doesn't really care immediately whips off as an "answer" off the top of their head.

We need someone in Bavaria to drop in, chat up the secretarial pool, and see if they even indeed HAVE company archives for the period we're interested in.

[Ralph A]

Carl Poellath

marked 1936 Party Day tinnie. For the database.

[Tony & Kaiser]

Oooohh those sneaky Austrians!

So someone is faking badges and changing the name to avoid being prosecuted for violating a registered trademark? That would be a first in the industry of fraud. Changing the name on an ultra-high quality forgery which would prove it to be a forgery to avoid being called a fraud? I see..........

My understanding of forgery, is that it is counterfeiting an original item in order to represent it as the original. Fake manufacturer's are too smart to botch a name so bad, nor do they hold the morals to do that. People make fakes to look real to make money. Whenever a fake Van Gogh sells in Sotheby's, the forger does not sign it Von Cogh.

Perhaps my posting on page 4 of this thread was not read? I have two flight badges that came from Canadian vets and one of them is my Karl Pöllath Observer's badge which was obtained in 1945 by a Canadian Soldier occupying Germany. Not Austria, Germany. I am the first collector to own it. I think the quality speaks for itself, and the quality plus its history makes any argument Karl Pöllath badges are fakes, a moot point. So those pesky Austrians were faking obsolete badges to sell to the Nazis when they could be easily purchased for a small price? I see......

I would <u>like</u> to think that we who collect Imperial German are not as paranoid or as quick to judge as the fellows who collect Third Reich. They are quick to point the finger and scream forgery, with little information, based on emotional generalized assumptions, and without out any basis of fact. Lets keep that out of this forum.

Germany and Austria were bombed back into the stone age in W.W.II and it does not surprise me in the least that any record of a small independent jeweler may be missing. And we expect to find it on the internet? My city suffered a massive fire in the late 1800s and I discovered while doing a university paper that there are no records of many of the businesses that were destroyed and not rebuilt. I was in the Provincial archives and they do not exist. So I am reasonably sure that I won't find the names of these businesses on the internet.

The idea of a small jeweler with a very similar name ( and these are common names by the way) in the same city is extremely likely. Pöllath and Poellath may seem similar to us, but they are two different names. Like Smith and Smyth. A quick search on the net reveals over 2000 businesses named Pöllath so I can imagine what an Austrian phone book looks like. If Carl Poellath is such and old and established company, then changing a trademark name is not typical business practice. We are talking about two different companies. Poellath (large, still here) and Pöllath (small, gone) who both made beautiful badges.

To assume that Karl Pöllath made anything more than flight badges is just that; an assumption. Do not forget many of the jewelers/businesses that made decorations were filling a need in the market. For all we know, if you want to find another Karl Pöllath marked item, it could be a watch, a bracelet, who knows? At any rate, the quality of the badges speak for themselves. Tony http://www.kaisersbunker.com

[Frank Heukemes]

This really gets very interesting. Based on my gut feeling, the pics and our discussion here, I bought the badge shown at the beginning of the thread and will be able to post details later in the week.
Having been more lucky than other German cities, Schrobenhausen was never "bombed back into stone age". It is a small agricultural city between Munich and Nuremberg and not worthy of any Allied bomb.

It might be true that this salesforce guy of Poellath didn´t know ****. A second firm in that same small agricultural, not industrial city with basically the same name and surname seems to be very unlikely to me. I guess we are looking at the same maker at different time periods.

I tend to think it would be pretty useless for me to show up there and ask questions about times long gone by. The only people who would be able to tell me would be the ones that I would not have access to anyway. Retired or dead. The company grasshoppers probably don´t care if it was Pöllath at one stage, and "grandson managing director" Poellath would not be ready to talk to me.

Cheers, Frank

[Mike S]

This is my first post on this forum so I hope the images come through ok. I posted this badge on the GDC forum a while back but am glad to see the subject getting so much attention here. This badge is marked "KARL PO"LLATH, SCHROBENHAUSEN, 800" in 3 lines. Unfortunately the cross on top has broken off, but must have been very small due to what remains. The badge is hollow, and very lightweight, having a delicate quality. Note how narrow the pin is, as well as the amount of hand finishing, especially on the perimeter of the wreath and at the ribbon tips. I think the badge to be of at least pre-WW2 manufacture, due to it's high overall quality. I think Tony may be on the right track in thinking that different grades of badges could be ordered and that this may very well be a custom order badge.

Mike

[Mike S]

The back

[Mike S]

And the logo. By the way, I really like the looks of Frank's badge that started the thread. It has that 3 dimentional relief that is evident in all the Sanke card photos.

Mike

[Sonderkommando]

Thanks Frank for a bit of support here.
I want to make it clear that I am not bagging anyones badges but trying to work out why there are two different markings on these badges.
I don't believe the Poellath company traded under any other name as the catalogue from 1908 proves they were using that name then, and added to the fact that they used "Poellath" during the third reich makes it ridiculous to say that they would change the name they have used for over 200 years for a short period during WW1 (remember that both spellings are used on these badges, why do that if it is the same company making them!!!). Fair enough, the guy that answered my email from Poellath might know jack**** but added to the other facts I think he might just be right! I can gaurantee he knows a bit more than you and me since he actually works for them!
So then, lets say there was another maker in Schrobenhausen with the name "Karl Pollath". This company was in direct competition with Poellath and yet made a living making just two versions of flight badges. It's possible! However I would have said that it's not probable. Maybe he manufactured other products to make a living so then lets concentrate on finding anything with his maker mark on it, silver plates, napkin rings, badges, awards, jewellry, anything. Lets find a catalogue for his company or an old German paper with an ad for his company. Lets find one single thing to prove that this maker existed at all.
Businesses exist only to make money and pinning a business on the manufacture of two flight badges in a small town with a major manufacturer of badges of all sorts already in operation in that same small town seems far-fetched. (but not out of the question)
Tony, the reason we have dicovered fakes in this hobby is bacause they ARE different to originals, and the reason we know of fake Van Goghs is because they ARE different to an original painting. You wouldn't accept a Van Gogh signed Von Cogh, yet you will accept a Carl Poellath signed Karl Pollath?
Poellath has been in business for over 200 years and believe me, if somebody had been using their trademark on fake badges they would difinately be prosecuted, so this MIGHT explain the different spellings.
I am not the bad guy here, just another collector trying to find out the truth about these two different markings and if I've upset anybody I apologise, but I think we have needed to have a good "knock 'em down, drag 'em out" discussion about this subject for a long time!

Regards,
Brett

P.S. Tony, did you ever think that the vet you obtained your badge off was lying to you as to where he got it from? We all know it's not unheard of. No disrespect intended.

[Sonderkommando]

Great,
Now we have an 800 marked badge to add to the confusion!!!!
Up until now every badge has been marked SILBER.

But....
Notice it is on a Karl Pollath marked badge!

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrgh................

Brett

[Eric Stahlhut]

Well,

I've been looking for ANYTHING other than a flight badge with a Karl Po"llath hallmark on it for THREE days, and can't find diddly-squat.

What really bugs me is that I believe to have previously encountered this type of hallmark on an item other than a flight badge.

The thing that bothers me is that I seriously doubt that a company could suddenly spring up in the town of Schrobenhausen
and blatantly emulate what was (and still is) a rather prominent local business fixture and get away with it. The business laws during those days were far stricter than they are today.


This is a great thread!

[Eric Stahlhut]

No wonder Stogie's so quiet.

There are so many variants of this badge (we haven't EVEN begun yet, folks!) that my prediction is that things will begin to get complicated and messy rather quickly.


" All dat bastid Stogie haz tuh wurry aboot is frickin' CRESCENTS & CROWNS!"moremad moremad