Bavarian pilot´s badge by Poellath

[Eric Stahlhut]

Observer marked Carl Poellath

Now this one has a 'frosting' on it like the 1939 EK Spanges had.
The interesting part is the reverse.

[Eric Stahlhut]

Sorry for the scan

I really wish I had a digital camera in order to show what I will describe. Instead of prongs this one has a domed rivet identical to ones encountered on 3rd Reich war badges. The bubbling on the reverse is from the finish. This one has to be seen in person in order to fully appreciate it.

Has anyone else encountered a Bavarian Observer's badge with this type of setup on the reverse? I've never come across a similar example myself. One would think that if this were a repro it would pop up from time to time.

[Eric Stahlhut]

rivet

Here's an attempt to show the rivet:

[Eric Stahlhut]

I have also seen badges where the hallmark is stamped onto the pin itself in extremely tiny letters. Can't recall whether a 'C' or 'K', though.

Anyways, here's a link to Carl Poellath:

POELLATH

[Frank Heukemes]

Hi guys,

The badge I pictured in the beginning of this thread is not mine. I was merely looking for a thumbs up or thumbs down for this badge as I am looking into buying it. Looked good to me, but wanted to ckeck with you Imperials first.
So what´s the verdict?

Cheers, Frank

[Ralph A]

Not mine yet, but...

...I'm considering it. Looks a little "beat up". Are the cases to these things impossible to find?

I don't think Herr Weitze minds if I borrow the pics. He describes it as "Karl Pollath".

Want me to get clearer pics?

[Ralph A]

da

back:

I sent him an e-mail. Maybe this one's for me?

[Sonderkommando]

I have just had a look at the Carl Poellath site and read a bit of the company history. The company has been in existence for over two hundred years manufacturing coins and medals, etc of the highest standards and keeping this in mind I would say that they know how to spell their own name correctly, ie. CARL POELLATH. If this company was sub-contracting the making of parts to other smaller manufacturers and these manufacturers were stamping the name with a K instead of a C and the spelling of POELLATH was incorrect then the parts would have been rejected and sent back for replacement with parts stamped with the correct spelling. You have to remember that a company relies on it's name for business and to give an example, do you think that Cadillac would except parts made by a contractor that had stamped the name Kadillic on them? Of course not! Especially when the name is going to be so visible. All this makes me think is that we may be looking at two totally different manufacturers with different characteristics to their badges. (But what are the chances of two manufacturers with the same name manufacturing the same product in the same city? Nil of course!). Therefore it is possible (note I said POSSIBLE) that if a badge is not marked CARL POELLATH then it is a fake. As I said before, a company relies on its name for business so I don't believe the company changed the spelling of its name for no reason just before the second world war.
I expect to get shot down in flames for what I have just said but I feel it was a worthwhile contribution to the thread.
Maybe some of our German forum members can tell us if the German language was changed or simplified around the 1920's to 30's as this may be another reason for the different spelling of the name.

Cheers,
Brett

[Sonderkommando]

Actually, I've just had another thought. Maybe Carl Poellath did change their name in the 30's from Karl Pollath to Carl Poellath as this is the name they are using now. Therefore if they are still producing badges from WW1 to this day they may be marking them with with their current name Carl Poellath and that would make anything marked like this a fake! Whew, this is confusing..... Has anybody emailed the company and asked them what is correct for the markings on wartime and postwar badges?
I seriously doubt though that both forms of spelling would have been used together in the same time frame.

Regards,
Brett

[Eric Stahlhut]

Check!

I sent them a discreet email earlier today. I think you may have touched upon a thought that has been whirling around the noggins of us all.

It will be very interesting to see what the response (if any) is. I'm sure that they continued to make Imperial items throughout the duration of the 3rd Reich era. They were given a Lieferant number which was 84 (for Carl Poellath). They were also accorded an RZM number for metal insignia and badges ( M1/103). Could it be a case of PC awareness in the sense that they wanted to modernize their company name by using the form of 'Carl' instead of 'Karl' which was a throwback to a different era? Or was the successor of Karl aptly named Carl instead of Karl Junior?. In any case, if this turns out to be true, it is curious that they never followed the tradition of adding an "& Sohn" to their hallmarks. It would be great to get to the bottom of this...

Another thing to consider about the badges we've viewed so far is this: there is absolutely NO conformity towards weepholes on the reverses of any of the badges.

[Tony & Kaiser]

I am intrigued by the possibility that a younger Carl took over the company from a older Karl and modernized the spelling by changing the ö umlaut to oe which is in German, is a distinct sign of modernization of the language. I would like to stress, that seeing oe in old German text, pre 1918 would just not happen, as far as I am aware. It seems only to occur post 1930 from what I have seen, but I am sure our Deutsch friends have better comments on this?

Brett, As far as two manufacturers with the same name manufacturing the same product in the same city, have you ever been to Solingen? Every other company makes knives and many carry the same name, just a different trade mark. One of the more interesting observations about socioeconomics, is that when one industry flourishes in a community or district, identical companies also seem to appear. Tony

[Tony & Kaiser]

Don't weep for the weepholes, but us!

Eric, in regards to the conformity towards weepholes on the reverses of any of the badges have you considered at all my thought on page 2 of "farming out" badges to smaller manufacturers? That could easily explain the slightly different badges. As I have said many times to new collectors, we have to keep in mind that a company in the 1st or 2nd world war was making items to meet a demand for the product. When they modified a product for what-ever reason, they were not thinking about a bunch of collectors 80 years in the future arguing over why they changed a pin hinge. Tony http://www.kaisersbunker.com

[stogieman]

Maker mark

Inside lid of my Poelath Bavarian Flight Badge Case

[stogieman]

Fitted tray of Bavarian ...

... flight badge case. But it held a Prussian Observer! Long enough that the mark/impression on the tray and lid match the badge! Although, the badge had NO maker mark.

[Sonderkommando]

Okay, I've been doing some thinking and have come up with the following as a theory.
When WW1 broke out, the company was trading as Karl Pollath and as such was using that name on their badges. Thus we can assume that any badges marked Karl Pollath are from the earlier period (some still possibly post WW1). At some point, possibly during peacetime between the wars, they modernized their name and started using Carl Poellath. As a result, badges with the name Carl Poellath would tend to date from a later period (once again they could still be late WW1). The key lays in the exact year that they changed their name and hopefully Eric will get an answer to his email which will help us.
The fact that all their Third Reich stuff has the name as Carl Poellath and thats their trading name today tends to support this theory.
I would tend to suggest that anything marked Carl Poellath would be post WW1 for the above reasons and the fact that when marked Carl Poellath the mark is not centralized and wonky where as everything marked Karl Pollath is very neat and centralized with-out exception. Rick also pointed this out I think.
Frank, with this in mind, the badge you posted may be a post WW1 version but that is only an assumption and not definate.
Lets wait and see what Eric can come up with from his email to see if we can solve this once and for all.
Lets try and keep this thread going as this question has been raised several times with no real answers. I for one would like to know!

Regards,
Brett