New Imperial Ribbon Bars

[Don D.]

Would an Austrian order be on the left end of a pre-anschluss bar? Why no EK2? Could the Theresa ribbon be a substitute for something else like a Hamburg Hansa cross?

[Gardereiter]

Would an Austrian order be on the left end of a pre-anschluss bar? Why no EK2? Could the Theresa ribbon be a substitute for something else like a Hamburg Hansa cross?

That's an excellent question about the Maria Theresa Order being at the far left of a German bar.

Since the Reichswehr didn't institute any updated regulations governing awards, the soldiers simply based the configuration of their medal bars and ribbon bars on the old imperial-period regulations of their home states. The placement of the so-called "Vanity Awards" of the 20s and 30s was improvised according to the soldiers' own tastes.

Only two foreign orders... the Austrian Order of Maria Theresa and the Imperial Russian Order of St George... ranked extremely high on the Prussian Order Of Precedence. In fact, the Maria Theresa Order ranked No. 9 on this list and actually came before the Red Eagle Order, the Prussian Crown Order, and the Prussian Hohenzollern Order on peacetime ribbons.

The absence of an EK2 is not very surprising. During WW1, they were awarding EK2s willy-nilly in stark contrast to the Franco-Prussian War. In 1870-71, it was a very BIG DEAL to receive an EK2 and they were being awarded in very conservative numbers.

If Ian's bar is genuine, there are an unknown number of neck crosses and pin-back crosses/stars we will never get the opportunity to see.

[GdC26]

As I mentioned above, I'm a bit unsettled about this one.

Let's say for the sake of argument that the bar's owner did, in fact, receive the Maria Theresa Order and chose not to wear the ribbon in his buttonhole but rather on his ribbon bar, and that the bar's assembler used an Italian Crown Order ribbon because he didn't have a Maria Theresa ribbon in stock (i.e. wider white stripe.) Let's also say that the owner was a participant in the 1866 Prussian-Austrian War and the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-71. Here's what we then have on the bar:


Position 1.) Austrian Maria Theresa Order

Position 2.) Lippe Detmold War Merit Cross for Combattants

Position 3.) Princely House Order of Hohenzollern or the Order of Bene Merenti

Position 4.) Prussian Officer's Long Service (or a blue ribbon that was too dark used for the Prussian Crown Order or the Wuerttemberg Friedrich Order)

Position 5.) Franco-Prussian War Commemorative Medal

Position 6.) Saxon Commemorative Cross for Combattants of the 1866 Prussian-Austrian War

Position 7.) Swedish Order of the Sword

Position 8.) Argonne Cross 1920 issued by the Kameradschaftsbund Deutscher Ost- und Westfrontkämpfer

Position 9.) Austria Order of Leopold, Knights Cross OR the Honor Cross of the German Red Cross 1922


Does anybody have any further thoughts about what specific awards are represented on the bar? I would love to hear some opinions on this list of awards before I start pouring through rank-lists and award rolls. The owner would have definitely had some neck decorations, pinback crosses or stars and possibly one or two grand crosses in light of the other awards present on the bar.

Hello Gardereiter,
Not sure what all the excitement is about, as the bar is most likely a fantasy piece.

Allow me to play devil's advocate here, and lay out the case for the bar being bad:

• for starters, I'm not sure how any bar can be authenticated without seeing the back.
• moreover, the style of the bar indicates WWI vintage or later, not 1866-1870, something your last two attributions seem to confirm as well.
• the bar strikes me as German, not Austrian (to my knowledge, the Austrians only started using this style of ribbon bar after the 1938 Anschluss).
• as Austria did not participate in the Franco-Prussian war of 1870/71, and thus will not have awarded any MMTO's in relation thereto, assuming the bar is German, the award of the MMTO must then either date back to the Austro-Prussian war of 1866, or to WWI;
• problem with an 1866 award is that Prussia fought against Austria, and therefore, a Prussian officer (as the Prusssian long service award suggests this bar belonged to) is unlikely to have been awarded an MMTO in relation to that conflict. Incidentally, in that war, the kingdom of Saxony sided with Austria against Prussia, whilst Lippe sided with Prussia: so the combination of 2 and 6 and 4 and 6, if correctly identified, seems problematic as well);
• problem with a 1914-18 award is - amongst other things - the complete absence of ribbons of awards for bravery or distinguished conduct from any of the German states (EKII, HOH3X etc.). I saw your theory about this being a high ranking officers bar, but even if it is, I would still expect to see an EK II or HOH3X ribbon;
• if it is a (post) WWI Austrian bar, then as you note it is extremely rare (but not completely unheard of) to see the MMTO ribbon mounted on it. However, int that case, the absence of other Austrian awards.(ÖLO, ÖEK etc.) is problematic, as would be the placement of the ÖLO in last place.
• If the bar dates back to the Austro-Prussian war, then in 1920, the recipient would in 1914 have been at least (18 + 48 =) 66 years old, a bit old to have received the 1914-1918 Argonne cross I think.

In light of the foregoing, assuming your ID of the ribbons is correct I'd say there are strong indications for the bar being bad (or at least, as Don has suggested, it not being an MMTO bar but something else, but even then it seems to have issues that require explanation).

WW I MMTO awards to German officers are rare and eminently researchable, so if the bar is good it should be easy to identify the recipient.
Kind regards,
Sandro

[Ian Hulley]

Allow me to play devil's advocate here, and lay out the case for the bar being bad:[LIST][*]for starters, I'm not sure how any bar can be authenticated without seeing the back.

Good morning Sandro, photo of the reverse, as posted on page 1 ..

Bar 7 reverse.JPG

Cheers, Ian.

[GdC26]

Thanks Ian, looks like a Godet imitation to me (tight ribbons but sloppy grey backing with very loose stitching), which just compounds my suspicion further. And then, of course, there are the facts related above.
Kind regards,
Sandro

[GdC26]

To illustrate my point about composition - here are two ribbon bars of an actual MMTO recipient (Dr. Peter Scheider) recently auctioned at Dorotheum.
Kind regards,
Sandro

[Deruelle]

As these are purely Imperial I thought I'd try posting them here, I hope you like them ..

EKII bar.JPG

I know the top bar but could someone confirm the awards on the lower bar please ...

Iron Cross 2nd Class (Non-combatant), Merit Cross for War Aid Service, Red Cross Medal.

Iron Cross 2nd Class, Saxony Albrecht Cross, Merit Cross, Friedrich-August War Medal, General Honour Award.

Reverse

EKII bar1.JPG

Many thanks, Ian.

Hello

I read these nice thread. About the saxon ribbon bar, I don't like the hook on the back. It's not Umperial aera. You find several ribbon bars with this hook in WW2. Like Gardereiter said, the Merit ribbon should be ahead the Albert ribbon. Even if it is the merit cross, the swords should be in silver not in gold like here.I have more than 50 Imperial Saxon ribbon bar
You can see a great part of my collection here
https://gmic.co.uk/topic/36413-my-saxon-collection/

Regards
Christophe

[Ian Hulley]

Thanks for the opinions and information everyone

Regarding the strange Saxon bar it was actually the EK non-combatant, War Aid, Red Cross bar I wanted and the Saxon just happened to come with it ... it's UV- so possibly a later bar for a Veteran ?

Anyway, moving on ... Here's another I received over the weekend.

Bar 13th July.JPG

Bar 13th July reverse.JPG

Many thanks for your time and looking.

Cheers, Ian.

[VtwinVince]

That's also a cool one, looks like a Hessen AEZ and a Lippe KVK on non-combat ribbon, with a Hessen DA on the end.