New Imperial Ribbon Bars

[Ian Hulley]

As these are purely Imperial I thought I'd try posting them here, I hope you like them ..

EKII bar.JPG

I know the top bar but could someone confirm the awards on the lower bar please ...

Iron Cross 2nd Class (Non-combatant), Merit Cross for War Aid Service, Red Cross Medal.

Iron Cross 2nd Class, Saxony Albrecht Cross, Merit Cross, Friedrich-August War Medal, General Honour Award.

Reverse

EKII bar1.JPG

Many thanks, Ian.

[Gardereiter]

Both very nice bars.

I collect Saxon items and my humble observation about the original owner of your Saxon bar is that he was not a very "Patriotic" Saxon. Virtually every pre-1933 Saxon bar I've seen or own has the Saxon wartime awards placed before the Iron Cross because it demostrated a Saxon soldier's patriotic pride.

Also, a serious Saxon collector would scream bloody-hell because the Merit ribbon is not placed before the Albrecht ribbon. These should have been mounted in the reverse order according to the very strictly observed Saxon order of precedence.

One final note. It is difficult to conclude whether or not the Saxon Merit ribbon and the Albrecht ribbon represent the silver Crosses or the Knights Crosses. The peacetime Honor Cross and the Friedrich August Medal were definitely awarded when the owner was a non-officer. (I say non-officer because the owner might have been awarded the peacetime Honor Cross as either a civilian or an NCO.)

The fact is that many soldiers started out the war as NCOs and then were elevated to Officers during the war. There are countless Saxon medal bars with wartime enlisted awards and wartime officer's awards represented on the same bar.

But regardless of whether the Saxon awards are enlisted or officers' awards, the order of precedence was strictly observed as follows:

Position 1. St. Henry Medal or Knights Cross

Position 2. Merit Cross with X or Merit Order Knights Crosses 1st or 2nd Class with X

Position 3. Albrecht Cross with X or Albrecht Order Knights Crosses 1st or 2nd Class with X OR Saxon War Merit Cross

Position 4. Honor Cross with X or Honor Cross with Crown and X

Position 5. Friedrich August Medaille in Silver and Bronze

Position 6. Prussian Iron Cross 2nd Class



.

[Ian Hulley]

Gardereiter, many thanks for your expert advice. It seems you and I are the only people interested in these things on Imperial Forum.

Thanks again, Ian.

[VtwinVince]

Actually, there are a few other 'Imperialoids' here....anyway, I agree with the above, although the presence of an FAM on the bar would indicate a probability that this is a senior NCO's bar. I also quite like the first one, probably a Beamter's bar.

[Ian Hulley]

Cheers Vince

I have a few Imperial bars where I don't know the odd ribbon ... would you two mind giving me the benefit of your knowledge please ?

Thanks, Ian.

[Gardereiter]

... the presence of an FAM on the bar would indicate a probability that this is a senior NCO's bar.

Hi Vince,

You're right... for a long time, this was the conventional way of thinking about the presence of a FAM on a ribbon bar with an Albrecht ribbon. In various past publications of the DGO's O&E, this theory has been seriously modified, especially when there is a Saxon Merit Ribbon with Swords present.

Ian's bar has a Saxon Merit Ribbon with Swords. The Saxon Merit Cross with Swords was awarded only 375 times! That makes the chances of a Saxon NCOs bar having this award astronomically small. On the other hand, they were awarding Saxon Merit Order Knights Crosses 2nd Class with Swords left and right to front-line Saxon Officers.

[Don D.]

Nice bar and photo. I like that he didn't update his bar when he was called back to active duty.

[Element7]

Agreed excellent group!

Can you tell is he wearing a 14' or 39' EKI? Seems obvious that it would be a 14' because of the other awards but I can't quite tell from that pic. Did you get his EKI and wound badge?

[Ian Hulley]

Many thanks guys, here are the other bars I need some help on please ..

2 that came in today ..

Bars 7th July.JPG

Bars 7th July Back.JPG

Top bar ribbon 3 ? (I found it in the Bande Catalogue but the description is wrong)

Bottom bar ribbon 5 please ?

Thanks, Ian.

[Gardereiter]

You've got some more great bars here, Ian, with some very rare combinations!

Top bar, ribbon 3 is the Turkish-Greek War Campaign Medal. The owner was apparently in Ottoman service somewhere between 1919-1922 during this conflict because he has 2 Ottoman awards on the bar. The ribbon that looks like the Luebeck Cross' ribbon is actually the Ottoman Sanayi Merit Medal awarded for achievement in Arts or Sciences.

The last ribbon on the bottom bar is the Russian St Stanislaus Order 4th class, probably awarded for humanitarian service to captured Russian troops OR awarded when Czar Nicholas II visited Darmstadt. An added bonus is that this bar was made by Godet of Berlin !! One can tell this from the pin-back set-up that was used exclusively by Godet, not to mention the typical Godet-gray "Tuch" backing.

[Ian Hulley]

Wow, many thanks for that ! I found the red/gold striped ribbon in the Baden section of the Baenderkatalog page 198 #59 and assumed the last ribbon was the Luebeck Cross. The lower bar I wondered if it was a Hessen-Darmstadt award. I assume that bar was verboten post-Barbarossa. I did wonder about the light-grey backing and the strange pin/catch.

The next couple of queries ..

Bar 1.JPG

Bar 1 reverse.JPG

Bar 2.JPG
Bar 2 reverse.JPG

I assume the green/white striped ribbon on the lower bar is a faded Saxon Long & Devoted Service Award ?

Many thanks, Ian.

[VtwinVince]

Ian, I don't know where you're finding these Feldschnallen, but keep up the good work! Looks like the third ribbon on the first bar is an Azad Hind? That would be weird. You're right about the other one, a Saxon Long Service.

[Gardereiter]

Vince is right... you've got some kind of special knack for finding these bars with rare combos.

It's easy to mistake the ribbon on the first bar for the Azad Hind. As I already mentioned, one of my main areas of collecting is KR Sachsen, so the two ribbons flanking the Kriegsteilnehmer cross are quite familiar to me and actually represent the Kreuz für Freiwillige Wohlfahrtspflege (Cross for Voluntary Welfare Care) and the Ehrenzeichen des Sächsischen Landesvereins vom Roten Kreuz 3rd class.

Very nice bars !!

[Ian Hulley]

Many thanks to you both once again I am cataloging my collection for my girls .. one thing the pandemic has hastened I guess .. but nice things keep turning up

Here is the next 2 for appraisal and identification

The top one has a few 'Vanity Ribbons' and ribbon 1 looks to me to be an Italian Crown Order but that should be at the end ... right ? If someone could decypher it all please.

Bar 7.JPG

Bar 7 reverse.JPG

Another Weimar period bar but is the final ribbon Finnish please ?

Bar 6.JPG

Bar 6 reverse.JPG

Many thanks, Ian.

[Gardereiter]

Holy smokes, Ian !! Your top bar's first ribbon is the Austrian Maria Theresia Order. This extremely high order is very scarcely seen on any bar !! It is followed by the Lippe Detmold War Merit Cross for Combattants and the Princely Hohenzollern Order. You've even got a Swedish Order of the Sword in position 7. Pretty impressive.

The last ribbon on the bottom bar is the Austrian Legion's Honor Cross "Pro Patria".