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**torstenbel** · 11-04-2005, 07:58 PM

Gordon, believe it or not, but I think that I just received a reply from someone who graduated as a Missiles Officer in 1985 that answers all your questions and more...

I also think the man got the engraved dagger himself, but he has not admitted as much, yet...but I am working on him...

I do not have the time right now to translate his answer into english, but here is his reply in full and in German...enjoy! Cheers, Torsten.

Hm, also ich kann mich noch erinnern, dass es ab 1984 ganz schön hart wurde, den Offiziersdolch mit Gravur zu erhalten. Die zu diesem Zeitpunkt herausgegebenen neuen Bedingungen sahen nämlich das Prädikat "ausgezeichnet" und somit einen Zensurendurchschnitt von 1,0 auf dem Abschlusszeugnis vor. 1985 haben es 8 oder 9 Leute aus Zittau geschafft, den gravierten Dolch zu bekommen (drei davon aus der Sektion 04). Beim vorschriftsmäßigen Tragen an der Paradeuniform oder dem großen Gesellschaftsanzug (siehe DV 010/0/005) war der gravierte Dolch übrigens nicht vom "normalen" Offiziersdolch, den alle frischen Leutnante bekamen (siehe http://www.militaria-lexikon.de/kata...r_dolch4.html), zu unterscheiden. Die "Gravur" befindet sich nämlich auf der Rückseite der Scheide (da, wo auf der Vorderseite das DDR-Emblem und das Eichenlaub angeordnet sind). Und der Inhalt der "Gravur" ist denkbar unprosaisch: "überreicht vom Minister für Nationale Verteidigung". Stimmte übrigens 1985 auch so nicht. Denn die Ernennung des Jahrgangs 1985 wurde vom Stellvertreter des Chefs Landstreitkräfte und späteren Stechbarth-Nachfolger, Generalleutnant Horst Skerra, geleitet.

Der kleine Unterschied beim Ernennungs-Zeremoniell lag 1985 darin, dass die Anwärter auf einen gravierten Dolch ohne "Gehänge" ins Stadion marschierten, während alle anderen ihren Dolch schon an der Feldbinde zu hängen hatten. In der Regel hatten die Anwärter auf die Gravur auch schon eine Einladung für den anschließenden Empfang im Generalszelt in der Tasche. 1985 übernahm übrigens der Chef Raketentruppen/Artillerie der Landstreitkräfte, Generalleutnant Bormann, die Leitung des Plauderstündchens.

**Mike G.** · 11-04-2005, 10:13 PM

Torsten,

Can you clarify further what is being said? The way I read this is that he is inferring the engraving was on the back side of the dagger sheath, and not on the dagger blade. Am I reading / translating this correct?

**Gordon Craig** · 11-04-2005, 10:17 PM

Torsten,

Babblefish did a good enough job of translating the German for me to understand most of what the chap said to you. When you have the time, I would appreciate a more accurate translation than Babblefish gave me.

However, his reply really muddies the waters. According to him, the daggers presented to the students were "engraved" on the back of the sheaths with "Presented by the Minister of National Defense". It has been well established that daggers with this inscription on the back of the sheath were presented to General Officers only. Not graduating officers. The graduating officers had the engraving on the blade and it was "Fur ausgezeichnete Leistungen" or in English, "For Outstanding Achievement".

However, there are daggers with this inscription engraved on the back of the sheAth that have always been considered fakes because the Generals daggers with "Presented By the Minsiter of Defence" on the back of the scabbard were not engraved but had a small plate atached with the wording in raised black letters. I have photos of both and here is an engraved one that is regarded as being done post 1990. The presentation daggers with the raised letters did not include "der DDR". I can not find the photo of the dagger with the plate at this moment but I should be able to find and post it tomorrow.

What he says about the number of daggers awarded at his school in 1985 makes sense considering the photo of more than one being presented at one time. I very much appreciate your contacting these people and passing on their answers to me.

Regards,

Gordon

Attached Files

engraved_dolch1.jpg (81.8 KB, 236 views)

**Johann Voss** · 11-05-2005, 12:38 AM

I would love to purchase a dagger, the only ones i've found are very pricey.

**torstenbel** · 11-05-2005, 05:41 AM

Hi Guys, don't shoot the messenger...but this is what the guy says...the dagger has the inscription on the sheaths, just like the special presentation general's dagger...and only the ones that graduated with Excellent, i.e. average mark 1.0 (impossible to achieve, as far as I am concerned..

but obviously some did manage to do it...) got the dagger...

What you have to bear in mind please, is that this guy is neither a collector, nor a faker, nor a dealer...and he has absolutely no reason to make these things up or invent them and I personally would have 100% faith in what he is saying is the truth and if that is against what you had understood or known to date, then you may need to revise what you had known or understood to date and maybe, the engraved daggers with the engraving on the blade were given for another purpose or maybe they are an older version from the 60's or 70's or maybe they are fakes...? Obviously, these are the options...

I hope to get more information out of him still and I have asked him if he was one of the recipients of this engraved dagger and if so, if he could send me photos of his dagger...so, lets see how things develop...ok? Cheers, Torsten.

**torstenbel** · 11-05-2005, 09:29 AM

btw, if you want to know where and how I have obtained that information, have a look here: http://www.ohs-zittau.de/html/module...c&topic=146&17

you should be able to look at that forum, without having to be a member...Cheers, Torsten.

**Gordon Craig** · 11-05-2005, 09:40 AM

Torsten,

Sorry if I seemed to indicate that the chap you contacted was telling us anything but the truth. That was not my intent. I was just trying to explain what the dagger collecting community thougth was the case. This is not always correct and despite what some collectors believe the most correct information comes from those who were there. Especially if this chap actually received one of these daggers.

It would make sense that the DDR would start using daggers with engraving on the scabbard as a cost saving effort. Especially in the eighties when the economy of the DDR was in trouble. It would mean that they would not have to use the special dagger blades with the flat spot on one side for the engraving. They could use a standard officers dagger and put the engraving on the flat spot on the back of the scabbard.

It would be great if you are able to have this chap send us a picture of one of these daggers. Especially if it was presented to him. There are a couple of other questions that I would like you to ask him. Hopfully he is willing to respond again.
1-What kind of case did the dagger come in? IE the stabdard cardboard case or one of the whaite presentation cases. I would suspect the standard cardboard case if they used the standard officers dagger.
2-Was there any kind of certificate issued with the dagger?
Here is a photo of the inscription on the dagger sheaths that were presented to Generals officers. They were presented in a white case the same as the one my First In Class presentation dagger came in.

Attached Files

ddr8.jpg (51.5 KB, 231 views)

**torstenbel** · 11-05-2005, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by gordon.criag

Torsten,

Sorry if I seemed to indicate that the chap you contacted was telling us anything but the truth. That was not my intent. I was just trying to explain what the dagger collecting community thougth was the case. This is not always correct and despite what some collectors believe the most correct information comes from those who were there. Especially if this chap actually received one of these daggers..

Hi Gordon, it did not come across like that really...I just wanted to stop it possibly turning that way with anyone....

will try and get the additional info from the guy...judging by the way that he wrote his reply to me, I am quite sure that he did receive that dagger himself...otherwise, he would not have known that much detail about it...in the army you really just knew details like that about things that directly concerned you. if you were not directly effected by anything like that then you were unlikely to know the details about them...Cheers, Torsten.

**Mike G.** · 11-05-2005, 11:07 AM

Hi Torsten,

What your colleague has told you is extremely interesting to me. A couple of other collector friends and I have had numerous conversations about the "Presentation" Honour dagger, and felt all along that the inscription was not, and never was on the blade, but instead was on the plate on the reverse of the Scabbard/ Sheath. We found evidence of engraving on the sheath, but no evidence of engraving on the blade, except for the occasional dagger that routinely turned up on ebay, and the different so-called "Expert" articles that turn up in different "Society" publications, which never it seems, are supported with actual historical profidence to conclusively back up the article.

I am now leaning even more toward these daggers with engraving on the blade being post 1990 anomalies - all of them. As Gordon remarked, if your colleague does not mind assisting we Forum members further with our inquiry, we all would be very greatful for a photograph or two of an example of his, or someone else's Honour Dagger that has the engraving on the Scabbard / Sheath. And please rest assured that no one is going to question his integrity. This topic is one of the most blurred in my opinion, regarding what is, and what is not regarding DDR history. There are lots of articles on this topic, interesting enough, of which none are actually supported by absolute irrefutable evidence. The reader is always at the end, left to make up their own mind as to the authenticity of the information presented.

Your colleague is in fact the first real break-through regarding this topic. I'm very much looking forward to more information from this person. And perhaps eventually through this person and other of his colleagues as well, we can get to the actual Cadre that taught at these Academies and were responsible for presenting these Honour Daggers. Now there would be a source that would lock this matter down once and for all, "Tighter-than-a-drum".

**Gordon Craig** · 11-05-2005, 11:25 AM

Michael,

I have to disagree with you about the engraving on the balde not being authentic. The information that the baldes were engraved comes directly from the factory that made the daggers. They have no reason to be anything other than truthful.

As I said in my other post, changing to just engraving on the sheath would seem a logical thing to do because of the economics of the times. The fact that one individual received a dagger with engraving on the scabbard in 1985 does not prove that those daggers with engraved blades are faked. It does seem to prove that the daggers that were engraved on the scabbard were authentic and that is very interesting.

If the chap Torsten is communicating with can send him a picture showing the back of the scabbard, which hopfully he was presented with, that will validate excatly what the inscription was that was put there. Since there seems to be at least two different sets of inscriptions on these scabbards we need to know which one is correct.

The next question would be when they stoped ordering engraved blades from the factory.

Gotta love this research thing!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers,

Gordon

**Mike G.** · 11-05-2005, 12:01 PM

Gordon,

I'm sorry. I somehow missed your earlier post regarding the communique with the factory originally making the Honour Daggers. A search of the threads on the DDR Forum failed to produce it. It is probably buried in a thread with a different title, and therefore not readily apparent.

Can you again post this? I am very much interested in what this person at the factory had to say. In fact, I didn't even know the factory was still up and running?

Certainly if there is an officer at this factory with whom you have been corresponding who has provided you with information to give cause to believe DDR Honour Daggers were in fact engraved on the blades, that is absolutely worth merit.

I totally agree.

Can you then if it is not too much trouble post additional information about this? Sorry to be a pain, but as you commented, this is most defiinately a worthwhile subject to pursue to its conclusive end.

Thanks,

**Gordon Craig** · 11-05-2005, 04:53 PM

Michael,

I have not posted this information before. That is why you could not find it. I did not contact the factory directly and I do not believe that they are still in business although they were still in business at least up to 1992.

The information comes from Kurt Glemser who, as I undertsand it, did visit the factory. Kurt says that the daggers were supplied directly from the factory with the blades already engraved. It is interesting to note that the information that came via Torsten indicates that the practice of presenting the top students in the university with engraving on the scabbards started in 1984.

I believe that the practice of giving out the Presentation daggers with the engraved blades start in 1975 when the wearing of the dagger became mandatory and officers were presneted with a dagger upon their graduation and no longer had to buy them.

Regards,

Gordon

**torstenbel** · 11-05-2005, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by gordon.criag

. It is interesting to note that the information that came via Torsten indicates that the practice of presenting the top students in the university with engraving on the scabbards started in 1984.

Gordon

No, no, no...

that is not what he is saying...he is saying that the award criteria changed after 1984. Until 1984 it was sufficient to graduate with Sehr Gut (average of 1.5 mark or better) and from 1985 onwards you had to graduate with Ausgezeichnet (average mark of 1.0) to get the engraved dagger...Cheers, Torsten.

**Mike G.** · 11-05-2005, 05:13 PM

Okay,

So, if I follow correctly, we are now looking at the possibility of two specific types of "Presentation" Honour Daggers - one for which the blade was unique in that the blood-line was interupted to permit engraving, and one with a complete blood-line on the blade, wherein the engraving was therefore done on the reverse of the dagger sheath. The former possibly associated with graduates in the 70s, and the latter with graduates in the 80s.

And based on information provided by Torsten, after 1984, it became increasingly difficult for a graduating officer candidate to qualify for an engraved Honour Dagger, due to the criteria being much more stringent. So after 1984, engraved daggers (whether they be on the blade or on the sheath) were even more rare.

Somewhere, there has to be an audit trail regarding production of these type daggers, as well as award of same (certificate). That is what I'm putting my money on.

**Gordon Craig** · 11-05-2005, 11:06 PM

Michael,

Your recap sounds good to me. It would be nice if the chap who Torsten was conversing with could tell us that he received a special award certificate with the dagger. If that was the case then I would expect there would be a list somewhere of dagger numbers and corresponding names. It would make sense that there would be a record somewhere of graduates who received a special presentation dagger. Perhaps some day we will be lucky and it will surface.

Cheers,

Gordon

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