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**erovi** · 10-20-2005, 01:39 PM

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**Gordon Craig** · 10-20-2005, 04:04 PM

Thalmannpionier,

The States Wappen on the presentation box that I posted the picture of is correct. Because the States Wappen is printed in one manner by one manufacturer, on a dagger box for instance, is not suficient reason to expect that a different manufacturer, IE a manufacturer making a box for a medal compnay, would print it the same way. There is always room for slight variations in the way manufacturers do things.

Thanks for your post. We all learn by asking each other questions.

Regards,

Gordon

**Gordon Craig** · 10-20-2005, 05:38 PM

Gents,

Here is a scan of the early hangers, that came with a receipt dated 1965, that I mentioned previously in this thread. They are quite different than the ones we normally see.

Regards,

Gordon

Attached Files

early_hangers.jpg (119.1 KB, 273 views)

**Thälmannpionier** · 10-21-2005, 06:35 AM

Originally posted by gordon.criag

Thalmannpionier,

The States Wappen on the presentation box that I posted the picture of is correct. Because the States Wappen is printed in one manner by one manufacturer, on a dagger box for instance, is not suficient reason to expect that a different manufacturer, IE a manufacturer making a box for a medal compnay, would print it the same way. There is always room for slight variations in the way manufacturers do things.

Thanks for your post. We all learn by asking each other questions.

Regards,

Gordon

Thanks for the Explaination Gordon.

But wasn't there a kind of regulation or Law,how the Staatswappen has to be presented on any kind of award? I don't think that any manufacture could print the Staatswappen in the way he'd like.But maybe yes.

Would be nice if someone could bring up some facts about the Staatwappen and the Law or Regulations,of how it had to be and if there were slightly different variations.

Im just asking,because I have never seen such a Staatswappen on any awarded item from the DDR.

Regards
Andreas

**Thälmannpionier** · 10-21-2005, 11:28 AM

There is a NVA Dagger with Presentation Box for Sale on the E-Stand rightnow,with the same Staatswappen on the Box like above.So I guess,this was the way they have produced them.

Would be nice to start a Thread about DDR Daggers,with all differences in Appeariance of the Daggers.

Because the one for Sale has also the Staatswappen on top of the Handle.That is also new for me. Mine doesn't have this nice feature

Regards
Andreas

**torstenbel** · 10-21-2005, 11:41 AM

I have now seen quite a few different types of boxes for the army daggers...does anyone have an overview of how many different types of boxes there were?

I am still looking for an original box for my Army Officer dagger...

anyone have one...please??...

Cheers, Torsten.

**Gordon Craig** · 10-21-2005, 04:20 PM

Thalmannpionier,

The daggers with the States Wappen on the end of the pommel were for Generals and Admirals. Officers in the Army, Air Force and Navy had the "hammered" surface on the pommel.

Torsten,

There were two different cardboard boxes produced for the regular officers daggers. The first type of box came in at least two colours. Red and blue and had a sort of mottled appearance to the surface. The later type box was of a solid colour with a similar type pebbled surface as the white presentation box picture I posted. My early style box is red while the later one is green. I am not sure if there were other colours or not. There are several pictures of the cardboard boxes on this forum but in other posts. If I get time this weekend I'll post some pictures of different boxes. As I said earlier, I have seen these boxes for sale on eBay.de but not very often.

Cheers,

Gordon

**torstenbel** · 10-21-2005, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by gordon.criag

Torsten,

There were two different cardboard boxes produced for the regular officers daggers. The first type of box came in at least two colours. Red and blue and had a sort of mottled appearance to the surface. The later type box was of a solid colour with a similar type pebbled surface as the white presentation box picture I posted. My early style box is red while the later one is green. I am not sure if there were other colours or not. There are several pictures of the cardboard boxes on this forum but in other posts. If I get time this weekend I'll post some pictures of different boxes. As I said earlier, I have seen these boxes for sale on eBay.de but not very often.

Cheers,

Gordon

Gordon, thank you...I would be grateful if you could send me a PM or email when you see another one for sale please...Cheers, Torsten.

**Roy Queen** · 10-21-2005, 07:39 PM

Odd Dagger Box

Here is my dagger that came in this box. Of the three DDR officers daggers that I've owned, this is the first one that has this really strange red box. Of the other two, one came in a blue box, and another came in a green box.

Attached Files

DSCF0002.JPG (41.7 KB, 253 views)

**Mike G.** · 10-21-2005, 07:44 PM

Gordon,

Thanks for the post of the presentation box. As you commented, the box types as well as colors differed greatly. The box you posted however matches the description to a "T" for that used for "Engraved" Presentation Daggers.

If I may comment about the lack of multiple holes in the Navy Officer Dagger "Hangar". To my knowledge, unlike the hangar issued for the Stasi, NVA (exception Navy) and Grenztruppen Officer Dagger, the Naval Officer Dagger Hangar to my knowledge, never had multiple adjustment holes, even in the older ones. This seems to be an anomoly, and might have something to do with the very small size of the NVA Navy.

Regarding posts about daggers.

There have been numerous informative posts about this subject matter to include some really good information and examples on presentation boxes:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.net/foru...ad.php?t=61573

**Gordon Craig** · 10-28-2005, 09:16 AM

Gents,

I have more information to add to this post re the history of this dagger. We have traced it to an Auction at Herman Historica dated 7 Nov. 1987. It was item #5987. Reserve bid was 850DM and it sold for 1000DM. A First In Class dagger sold in another auction that year went for 520DM.

The write-up in the HH catalogue is very vague and I am sure they had no idea what they were selling other than it was an East German dagger. East German daggers must have been few and far between in those days but I know of an Admiral's dagger that was sold in West Germany in 1987 so they were available.

I emailed Herman Historica last night and asked if they had any more information now, on these specific daggers, than they had in 1987 and their answer was "no". Another dead end.

Cheers,

Gordon

**torstenbel** · 10-30-2005, 06:46 PM

got a little more feedback, one guy who graduated in 1990 confirmed that they were no longer given a dagger in that year and there is a little confusion about the award criteria for the engraved dagger, some think it was given to the best of each Sektion, others think it was given to the best at school and someone else again thinks it was given to everyone that graduated with Sehr Gut, i.e. better than 1.5 average mark..so no easy answer to this one, even from those that went through the system and that went through the graduation ceremonies...Cheers, Torsten.

**Mike G.** · 10-30-2005, 10:13 PM

Torsten,

Thanks for the follow-up. I'm really not all that surprised that there was confusion among the former NVA Graduates with whom you communicated. I suspect these ceremonies in which honor graduates were recognized and presentation daggers awarded, were not held in front of the entire class, but were restricted to just the Candidates being honored. It would be nice however, if this could be clarified before the passing of time clouds the memories of those that might know, even more. I still think the best source for resolving these questions are communication with the former "Cadre" that taught at these Academies. They for sure one would think, would know.

Gordon,

With respect to your last most recent post. Are you tracing the history of the dagger about which you started this thread? That would be the dagger with the inscription: "In Recognition For Excellent Service" ?

If so, you spoke of it having been traced to an auction house in 1987 and having been auctioned under No. 5987 for DM 1000.00. Is the dagger serial numbered? Is there a certificate of issue or sale, with matching serial number, or other papers/documentation of some sort, perhaps with a photograph of the dagger that identify the one about which you initiated the thread as being the one that was auctioned in 87?

You used the vernacular "We". Who is assisting you with this project? Have you assembled some sort of team. Can you explain further or share with the Forum your process for establishing the origin and history for this particular artifact? It would of course be very interesting, as I suspect this is a rare occurrence. It would be greatly appreciated if when time permits, you could fill in the pieces to give a clear picture. It may prove very helpful to other members in the future, who are trying to establish providence for a particular unique, almost one-of-a-kind DDR item/article.

Best of luck in your continued endeavor regarding this dagger.

**Gordon Craig** · 10-30-2005, 11:01 PM

Michael,

Yes I was referring to the Presentation Dagger that I started this thread with. When I use the term "we" it is myself and present owner of the dagger who are working together on the research. I am not sure how the present owner of the dagger came into poseesion of the dagger or the catalogue except that he purchased the dagger in 1990 so he was not the person who bought it at auction in 1986.

I can not confirm at this moment that the catalogue reference refers to this exact dagger because it does not contain the dagger serial number. To be frank, it only confirms the fact that daggers with this inscription existed in 1986. I believe this could be significant because it is doublful that copies/fakes of DDR daggers were being manufactured by the sole maker at this time. The daggers with the fake inscriptions only seemed to hit the collector market after the fall of the wall.

What I need to do is go through all the exchange of emails and record all the salient facts then ask some intelligent questions. The one thing I can say for sure is that I believe I can confirm that there are now 5 of these daggers in existance. Two of which are very close in serial number but I do not know excatly how "close" that really is. I intend to begin some telephone conversations, which may be more productive than exchanging emails, because we can ask each other petinent questions as they occur.

I will certainly keep the forum up-to-date on my research in this area. I am stiil waiting for DHM and the Military Museum in Dresden to respond to my emails.

Cheers,

Gordon

**Mike G.** · 10-30-2005, 11:09 PM

Gordon,

Good luck on your coordination with the former DDR Museum in Dresden. My understanding is, the Curator formerly there that was both friendly and knowledgable regarding DDR memorabilia in, or from the museum, is no longer Curator. The new Curator reportedly is not so understanding and helpful.

I hope the museum is understanding of the questions being posed, and sympathetic to your needs.

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