Verbandsabzeichen des Heeres – Bw Army Unit Insignia

[Proud Kraut]

Proud Kraut,

Interesting comment. I have not digested all of the VDv 37/10 but I don't remember seeing different regulations for the Feldanzug than are printed for the Dienstanzug. However, regardless of what the regulations appear to say what is actually done wins the day.
Just as an general comment to no one in particular, there are feldazug tunics with out a pocket on the sleeve, with a pocket on the right sleeve only and a pocket on the left sleeve only. It would appear, from what you say, that the unit patch was worn on the sleeve without the sleeve pocket.
Thanks for this additional information on what is actually worn.

Regards,

Gordon

Hi Gordon, please regard the picture of GM Kneip, former CO of the 1st Panzerdivision when deployed to Afghanistan.
http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=h...d=0CJABEK0DMCI

ISAF patch on the right sleeve, 1st PzDiv patch on the pocket of the left sleeve. Absolute not uncommon. I have even seen the wear of patches on both sides in addition of two patches one above the other...

Lars

[Marc Sherriff]

Does this help? Taken from the ZDv 37/10. Brief translation.

The internal federation badge may of the members of the appropriate troop unit as − metal or enamel badge angeknöpft at the button of the right breast pocket under the pocket flap to the Dienstjacke2); the service shirt, the service blouse; the ski blouse (army); the field blouse, Tarndruck3) 4); the field jacket, olive, 3) and the Feldhemd3), − material badges within the federations uniformly on the left chest side or the right top sleeve of the field blouse, Tarndruck3) 5), the field jacket, oliv3); the Feldhemdes3); the Fliegerkombination3); Fliegerlederjacke3), the Panzerkombination3); Mechanic combination, lfztechn Pers3); the training suit, to be carried.

1) applies to reservist badges accordingly
2) in same place with service jackets without put on bags; if necessary. without leather-lax
3) see No. 212
4) Attachment button is to even attach
5) with older models with sewn on Seitentaschen on the right top sleeve is the material badge on the left top sleeve to be carried.

[Proud Kraut]

Please find attached a screenshot of ZDv 37/10 No. 536 that can be found online here: http://www.dmb-lv-westfalen.de/z1.pdf

I have underlined the order to wear unit patches on field dress either on the right upper sleeve or left pocket. Please notice the footnote stating the exception that patches have to be worn on the left sleeve, when the sleeve pocket is sewn on the right sleeve (first style variants of the feldbluse). In fact every possible variation can be found out there...

[Proud Kraut]

Does this help? Taken from the ZDv 37/10. Brief translation.

The internal federation badge may of the members of the appropriate troop unit as − metal or enamel badge angeknöpft at the button of the right breast pocket under the pocket flap to the Dienstjacke2); the service shirt, the service blouse; the ski blouse (army); the field blouse, Tarndruck3) 4); the field jacket, olive, 3) and the Feldhemd3), − material badges within the federations uniformly on the left chest side or the right top sleeve of the field blouse, Tarndruck3) 5), the field jacket, oliv3); the Feldhemdes3); the Fliegerkombination3); Fliegerlederjacke3), the Panzerkombination3); Mechanic combination, lfztechn Pers3); the training suit, to be carried.

1) applies to reservist badges accordingly
2) in same place with service jackets without put on bags; if necessary. without leather-lax
3) see No. 212
4) Attachment button is to even attach
5) with older models with sewn on Seitentaschen on the right top sleeve is the material badge on the left top sleeve to be carried.

Great Mark! You beat me to it...

[Gordon Craig]

Mark and Lars,

Thanks for the ZDv 37/10 stuff. Greatly clarifies the issue. Thanks you both for taking the time to look it up.

Regards,

Gordon

[Guardian 5]

Gentlemen,

Please accept my thanks as well.

To re-cap, we have established the Reservisten patch as legitimate, with the jury still out on the Berlin patch and modified Korps patch.

We have however, come to some agreement on how these patches are worn.

The photos I posted were recent grabs from eBay. Unfortunately, I am unable to provide additional information or photos.

In any event, thanks again for the great feedback.

All the best,
TJ

[Proud Kraut]

Today I would like to discuss one of the Bundeswehr Verbandsabzeichen that can be found occasionally. It's a red shield with crossed swords and the letter "S" ("Schule" = School). Usually army school patches are bordered with the respective branch color: Red border = Artillery, grey border = Army Aviation and so on. Some exceptions do exist. E.g. members of the Offizierschule (OCS) and Unteroffizierschule (NCO Schools) are wearing a school patch with white/black border.
The patch I want to talk about is an Army school patch with white border. By some the patch is called "Musikschule" (music school) because of the border's white color. It's depicted in the center with the OCS and Army Aviation School patch for comparison.



The facts:
- the patch appears to be 100% vintage made, not one of the modern repros you'll find online everywhere today,
- the border color is clearly visible white, it's not a kind of faded/bleached grey etc.
- white is indeed the Waffenfarbe (branch color) of the Army Music Service (Militärmusikdienst).

So what's the problem with this patch? In none of the uniform manuals (ZDv 37/10) I have ever seen a music school patch depicted AND as far as I know the German Bundeswehr never run a military music school. New musicians were and are trained by the Ausbildungsmusikkorps (Army military training band) in Hilden.
So a manufacturer's error? Probably, but maybe the error was "initiated officially"?
Yesterday I came across a ZDv 37/10 from 1973. This manual shows the army officer's school patch with white border instead of the white/black one.



The forerunner and all successor ZDv 37/10 show the white/black bordered OCS school patch. Obviously an error that got the manufacturer to produce exactly the depicted patch? Was it ever worn? I don't know. Maybe someone has more informations about this one. Would be great to hear the collector's community opinion.

[Gordon Craig]

Proud Kraut,

An interesting question. My take on this is that it was not a Music School badge. For the reasons that you mentioned plus pictures I found on the site of the Ausbildungsmusikkorps plus some pictures on the Das Heeresmusikkorps Neubrandenburg. They all seem to wear the same Verbandsabzeichen. Here are some of the photos I saved from both locations.
According to my understanding of what it says on the site, these musicians are in training for a concert band at the Ausbildungsmusikkorps.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

Das Heeresmusikkorps Neubrandenburg appear to wear the same Verbandsabzeichen as the musicians at the training school.

[Marc Sherriff]

My 1972 copy is amended up to January 1975, however the text and image for the Army Officers School badge (white border fig 77) has never been changed in any of those amendments.

Marc

[Gordon Craig]

Here is another one I'm unsure about; obviously connected to Berlin somehow.

Does anyone have an I.D.?

Thanks again,
TJ

TJ,

This the crest of the Justiz polizei and the Berliner Wache. The cap is for the Wachepolizei the crest with the point in the other picture is for the Justizpolizei.

Regards,

Gordon

ps - I should have mentioned that only the Justiz wears the cloth arm badge. Berlin Wache has a different arm badge. They only use this insignia on their caps.

[Proud Kraut]

Das Heeresmusikkorps Neubrandenburg appear to wear the same Verbandsabzeichen as the musicians at the training school.

I forgot to mention that. At least members of the Ausbildungsmusikkorps are wearing the Verbandsabzeichen "Zentrale Militärische Dienststellen"

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zentra...e_Dienststelle

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

Moving on from where we left off on this schule Verbandsabzeichen with the white border, has anyone seen this in wear on a uniform? That is, in wear in a period photograph, not added by a collector.
How were the manufacturers given directions as to what they should make for a specific Verbandsabzeichen? I think it would help us to know the procedure for design, approval and specification given to manufacturers to make some educated comments on this badge.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

Proud Kraut,

I don't know if this helps or hinders your search for an answer but in going through some copies of Der Reibert, and similar books today, I found this school badge show with the white outer section as it is shown in your ZDv 37/10. This copy of Der Reiber dates from sometime after 1994 although the book itself does not seem to be dated. Here are the pictures from this book showing verbandsabzeichen contained in it. They quote ZDv 37/10 as their source. They identify the verbandsabzeichen in questions as "Truppenschulen Lehrtruppenteile L". I am not quite sure what they mean by this designation.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

And the page that is really of interest.