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    #46
    TJ, I fear you`ll have to stay with the designation "First Model BW Field Flask"!

    At this time it was the one and only canteen and it just was a canteen ... maybe later someone called them "alte Ausführung" und "neue Ausführung" but I fear there was no special, official name...

    Jens

    Comment

      #47
      Oh no!

      This could be a headache, because I think some of the "cocos" have early dates - which one came first?

      There is also the issue of the M1931 canteens issued to the BGS and loaned to nearby BW units that lacked equipment of their own. Would these technically be the "first models"?

      It will be fun sorting through this when I get back to the East Coast at the end of the week!

      Thanks - TJ

      Comment

        #48
        koppel

        I took some shots of the belt today:


        The first part of the belt doesn't have any holes, after that the holes have even spacing

        The buckle is of the standard BW type

        Here you see that the holes are closer to eachother than the first hole-less part of the belt


        The belt doesn't have one of those US style pouch fixation buttons close to the buckle

        Whatever kind of belt it is, it can't go wrong for me since it only cost me 5 Euro, I think that would be nice even for a standard belt

        Michel

        Comment

          #49
          nmmnmk

          ow and if anyone would like to buy something cool, there is an ABL marked leibermuster uniform for sale on Marktplaats.nl
          It's too expensive for me anyway

          http://link.marktplaats.nl/313177713

          Michel

          Comment

            #50
            Michel, the miraculouse belt looks strange to me...the metal parts look very familiar, they should be of Bundeswehr origin, with the strap end missing. Introduced in the early sixties (maybe 1959/60) and used until 1990 (perhaps still in use in some units). But the webbing belt looks strange. On one hand too soft for BW, on the other very strange because of the rivet-protected holes - never seen this on a BW belt! Maybe a very similar belt was used in another nato country ?? The danes for axample procured "german-style" flashlights and magazin pouches for the G3 ...

            Regards,

            Jens

            Comment

              #51
              Asbjoern, to me the softness reminds me of the most comon type of belt encountered in the 1956 BW, but I can only compare by pictures as I don't have it. The metal parts are indeed standard BW, but quite used/old.
              I also have the 80's Moleskin uniform with the belt and all, so that provided me with comparison material for the normal combat belt.
              I have also never seen these kind of holes in anything german, not that I can recount it on anything other that I have in my possession.
              I have looked through my picture galleries and I saw that it isn't danish, they did use the mag pouches on the '58 uniform, but had a british style belt.
              I have also browsed through a variety of other countries' pictures but found nothing.

              On another account, after some digging in my depot I managed to find my Amöbentarn Zeltbahn and thus found out I didn't sell it
              Would it be correct to put it together with the 1956 uniform?

              Michel

              Comment

                #52
                Yes, for shure, the 1956 belt was a bit softer then the later ones and also issued in olive green ... but definitely also without the holes. Depending on the missing strap end it may also be "do it your self" belt, recyceling parts of a BW belt... .

                The Amöbentarn Zeltbahn is definetely be the correct one for early BW.

                Jens

                Comment

                  #53
                  belt

                  I bought one of the 3-buckle field belts as of yesterday, so now I will have to wait for it and I'll be able to compare :P

                  Michel

                  Comment

                    #54
                    Bw never wore belts with metal holes? Maybe not like Michael Wijnands belt, but very early for short time they had different type with holes. Photos of Bw from 1955 show belt that is almost identical with American army belts.

                    regards
                    Klaus

                    Comment

                      #55
                      Sorry for my late return. I forgot to subscribe to the thread and have been very busy as of late. Easy stuff first...

                      I know of at least two models of webbing belt with 4 metal pieces. I just saw the rarer 1st Model go for $125 just a few days ago. It has webbing D rings and is a greenish color. The 2nd Model is a grayish color and usually goes for around $100.

                      I have never seen an example of a BW belt with US type holes in it, however I have seen a BW shovel cover with a US style belt attachment so either one exists or they were using surplus US belts (which I doubt since the BW was producing its own kit right from the start).

                      As for the different models of Splittertarn, what I've stated is based on examples I have in hand, except for 1st Model FJ Uniform, which I only have pictures of (both period and from collectors). Some info is posted in this parallel thread:

                      http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=379623

                      As for what I call "Narrow Splinter" there is at least two colorations, perhaps a rare third (I've only seen one example of the former). The Blue variant appears to be the more commonly seen vs. the Green. I have no idea why there are two colorations, but remember these uniforms were only produced for 2 years and things were very much in flux. I would not be surprised if the BW decided to switch to Blue but let the previously produced Green cloth to go into production (contractors hate throwing cloth out). But I have no information either way.

                      There were, indeed, two variants of Narrow Splinter trousers made for the Infantry jacket. I have both There are a ton of differences so it's not some simple modification of the standard Infantry trousers. Here are two pics of each, Luftlande trousers first:



                      Notice the small pocket to the right of the fly. The rear pockets have snaps and not buttons, the cuffs have a complex buckle system:



                      There are other differences too, but it's been a while since I've done a side by side comparison. Unfortunately, the tag in mine is missing. I'm pretty sure they were produced in 1956. The guy I bought them from (a very advanced BW collector) said only a few hundred were made, which I do not find hard to believe. Unfortunately mine are in pretty brutal shape.

                      The Gebirgsjäger trousers are pretty easy to identify as GJ since they are short "Kneehosen":



                      There are also quite a few differences besides the buckles just below the knees, but it's been a while since I've checked out the differences. I've seen three for sale over the years and all were produced in 1956. The two I have label pics of were both produced in October 1956. I expect the third one I saw was also produced by the same company in the same year.

                      Note that the above three pictures are from the ones in my collection, though the pictures are from the sellers. I never got around to taking my own pictures

                      Hope that helps!

                      Steve

                      Comment

                        #56
                        On closer examination of the belt with holes, I think it is a "fake". Looks to me like a "British P-58 style" belt cut down and reassembled using standard BW issue pieces, less the brass end of the free side of the belt. The most important piece of evidence is that the Germans only used the US type belt when they got first stated in 1955, while the buckle started appearing around 1959 or so (I forget exactly when). Between that were at least two models without holes and no equipment which required holes was made during that period that I'm aware of.

                        But for $5 you can't go wrong

                        Steve

                        Comment

                          #57
                          belt

                          I also compared it to a M58 belt (as I have a complete british Falklands War uniform) and it's quite different, but the theory of some random military belt being modded to fit on a German buckle might be true, it could either be done by some random person, or a German soldier who wanted holes in his belt, or another country's soldier who wanted a german style buckle since it's quite stable and gold colored (pimp :P)

                          @ Collectinsteve, the green belt you mentioned, was it on Ebay.de?
                          Do you happen to know what the belt loops were used for? Particularly the one with a loop on the top and bottom and the strange hook on the outside?
                          The hook seems to me to be some kind of helmet-hanging-hook, but I honestly have no idea if that's really the case.

                          Michel

                          Comment

                            #58
                            Here is photo with American-style belt, from 1956. It comes from German forum, but I hope ok to post here. I have some more photos in book about German army that show these belts better, but would have to scan. Of course standing soldier is American, but both in greatcoats are Bw. It also seems to be early (1955-56) thing to wear greatcoat over Arbeitsanzug.

                            Comment

                              #59
                              Hi Michel,

                              There are a number of countries that produced equipment based on British patterns instead of American. The primary feature being only a single row of holes instead of the US style double rows. The French, Belgians, and Danish come to mind immediately as being of the British style. The South Africans also made a near direct copy of the P-58 stuff, though I am not suggesting the belt is SA origin because I for sure don't think that

                              Yes, you and I saw the same auction. Probably both bid on it as well I have no idea what the rings/hooks were used for. My guess is the D ring was for hooking the canteen too, but that's just a guess.

                              Steve

                              Comment

                                #60
                                whaha

                                Yeah my own little Holland made a copy of the British 37'pattern but with a single row of holes, different ones to the mystery-ones though, and the fabric is quite different too as the one on my belt is thinner and has another structure.
                                The French belt I believe has 2 rows of big holes.
                                And I think that the Danish doesn't have any holes at all (?)
                                Well we did bid on the same belt then, but I was a bit more generous with bidding since I was annoyed the last 3 times I bid too low

                                I did saw a picture of soldiers with Y-straps on, I think they were WW2 type, but then there's still the weird hook on the long side of the loop, the ring on the bottom could indeed have some sort of purpose like that.

                                Michel

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