BGS BundesGrenzSchutz

[Klaus1989]

interesting, the parkas must be different than the jackets and tunics then. Because I collect only up to early 60s, not have a parka in my collection.

I received spare 17 mm button with some other more common sizes once and wondered what was for. Not help Michel though, because he need 2...

Regards
Klaus

[Collectinsteve]

Michel,

If that liner label in fact is 1977 (I don't have any idea either way as these labels are a mystery to me!) it could be from the nearly identical green parka that replaced it. I'm fairly certain they are interchangeable.

Klaus,

As far as I can remember I have never seen an item in Sumpftarn dated beyond 1975. For sure they were worn for another year (at least), but that is not the same as manufactured.

My parka came without buttons so I can't help with the 16mm vs. 17mm question. It is not unusual for coats to have larger buttons, however I am surprised that the shoulder buttons would be larger. I always thought the reason for larger buttons was to make them easier to use with gloves/mittens. Obviously no reason for the shoulder buttons to be larger if that's the case.

Steve

[Collectinsteve]

Noticed these BGS jackets for sale at The Victory Show in the UK last month. Unsurprisingly some of them were additionally badged up with 3R insignia.

This picture makes me sad

The end jacket on the rail was a bit out of the usual in that it appeared to be a BW sand coloured variant but with BGS epaulettes and collar patches (the sleeve badge was a spurious 3R addition).

Based on what I see I'd presume all the badging on all the jackets is suspect.

Steve

[Klaus1989]

As far as I can remember I have never seen an item in Sumpftarn dated beyond 1975. For sure they were worn for another year (at least), but that is not the same as manufactured.

I know very much, that things can be worn after they were produced (Sumpftarn trousers are good example - can find photos from early 70s of them, longer after production stop). Just not think, that dates on labels, that you have seen and/or own is best way to determine dates, only a help. Often first and last years of production will be very underrepresented or (in some cases) very hard to find. Try to find Sumpftarn uniforms from 1958 for example - very rare...

There is also evidence as mentioned, that parkas were issued longer than other camo clothing, so 1977 production is possible. There was example long time back in this thread with what appear to be 1982(!) date.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&postcount=318

Regards
Klaus

[Gordon Craig]

Back to shoulder board button sizes. The parkas from my collection with 17 mm buttons all have small loops about 25 mm wide. I have another parka that has large plastic buttons for the shoulder boards, about 35 mm and much wider loops, about 32/33 mm wide.

Regards,

Gordon

[michelwijnand]

I checked out the Kokarden on my hats, and the difference is just 1,5mm, probably just a manufacturer difference, or maybe a bit squashed with laying under stuff or something. Somehow I have an eye for noticing small size differences, and it looked like a bigger difference to me.

Another difference is outer ring colors though. I have with gold, silver, and one that looks like weathered dark gold. Which would be correct? They are on BW and LW hats.

And the pockets inside the trouser pockets, the bottom part is about 5x5x5cm, and the loops above them are pretty narrow, probably enough to fit the head of a grenade through, but they are definately not magazine sized.

Cheers,
Michel

[michelwijnand]

Hups, answering my own question, realized I had 1 good color photo of such a cap and Kokarde color showing, so a gold one it is!

Cheers,
Michel

[Klaus1989]

Hups, answering my own question, realized I had 1 good color photo of such a cap and Kokarde color showing, so a gold one it is!

Cheers,
Michel

I am not sure what you mean, photo would help better. I have seen darker and lighter gold area on Kokarden for caps.

Regards
Klaus

[Collectinsteve]

Just not think, that dates on labels, that you have seen and/or own is best way to determine dates, only a help.

Absolutely true. However, I look at eBay listings every week to check out dates on BGS and BW items, keeping pictures of any dates that seem interesting. Therefore my exposure to label dates is more than "in passing". I am actively searching for pictures to establish production periods for specific items. I have never seen a Sumpftarn uniform date beyond 1975 (the exceptions are GSG-9 helmet covers and experimental fragmentation vest).

Having said that, of course you are still correct that this is not conclusive and it is complicated by the fact that many of the labels contain no date at all. The undated items could be from a later time or earlier. There is no way to know, therefore they have to be ignored.

As a side note, my BW Splittertarn photo collection is about 75 unique label examples. I am tracking manufacturers as well as production dates so I pretty much save every label I see. Though I've slowed down since I haven't seen anything surprising in many, many years.

Often first and last years of production will be very underrepresented or (in some cases) very hard to find.

It really depends on when the contracts are started/ended and if the production is "phased in/out" or "full". For example, the first year of production for BW Splittertarn is 1956 and the last year is 1957. It's much easier to find 1956 items than 1957, but 1957 is still very easy to find.

In some cases disposal of items matters. There's probably 100-200 second model jackets on the market and in collections for every 1 first model jacket even though the BGS was probably larger in 1st model period than it was in the second model period. Which indicates the first model items were destroyed and the second model were stored (many with cuts), not that the second model was made in larger quantities (at least not to this extent).

My point here is that production start/stop quantities are subject to too many variables. Therefore, it isn't a good tool for figuring out production boundaries.

Try to find Sumpftarn uniforms from 1958 for example - very rare...

Actually, not in my experience I have several 1958 examples and have seen many more on eBay. However, I agree that 1959 is the most common date.

There is also evidence as mentioned, that parkas were issued longer than other camo clothing, so 1977 production is possible. There was example long time back in this thread with what appear to be 1982(!) date.

Remember that the federal government said "no more Sumpftarn" as part of the demilitarization of law enforcement uniforms. I doubt they would authorize spending money making more of these items except for short term emergency procurement. Certainly not for many years after the decision was made.

We also know that the green parkas were in production in the late 1970s. Why would they produce green AND Sumpftarn parkas at the same exact time? It doesn't make sense. What does make sense is that existing contracts were switched over from using Sumpftarn cloth to the green cloth to speed up the transition process. Because there was no significant change to the manufacturing itself, the transition from Sumpftarn to to green parka production probably took only a few weeks or a month after the decision was made.

Based on this the same thing to do is presume that production ceased in 1975 with perhaps a tiny amount made in 1976. Unless there is definitive proof of production after 1976 I think this is the sensible assumption to go by.

I checked Gene's post and I do not think that is a production date. Sadly, BGS items from this area are often not clearly dated. Back to Michel's parka... as I said the easiest explanation is that he has a liner from a green parka, which we do know was made in 1977. As far as I know the two liners are 100% identical.

Anyway, I am not the holder of absolute knowedlge, therefore I could be wrong. But the evidence we have in hand, I think, does not support the theory that Sumpftarn parkas were produced after 1975 (or perhaps 1976).

Steve

[Klaus1989]

Well both of our theories are only based on photos and clothing labels, until definitive orders for change emerge, it is all speculation. Just think sometimes, it is hard to say that this year or such is absolute cutoff date.

Actually, not in my experience I have several 1958 examples and have seen many more on eBay. However, I agree that 1959 is the most common date.

Have you posted them? not think, that I have seen one (or maybe one once on a German forum), and I am experienced collector, so is surprising to me, that they are everywhere on ebay. I think you exaggerate here though, or this was long time ago! "Many more" is not my experience, even 1959 appear only rarely (have 1959, but look for 1958 still). and I search ebay every week for past several years now. Kind of doubt, that I missed that.

Regards
Klaus

[Klaus1989]

Found these interesting photos from American soldier of BGS with Sumpftarn parkas in mid 1980s. Some BGS veterans mention the jackets still issued at this time too, but I think 1982 is latest, that I have seen photographic evidence (so far). The mixture of footwear (laced combat boots and Knobelbecher) is interesting.

http://www.eaglehorse.org/2_border_m...d_prescott.htm

[Collectinsteve]

Well both of our theories are only based on photos and clothing labels, until definitive orders for change emerge, it is all speculation. Just think sometimes, it is hard to say that this year or such is absolute cutoff date.

True it is difficult to know an exact cut off, however I think the facts do not support the parkas being made into the 1980s. If something was made in 1980s there would no doubt be some production in 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, etc. to find examples of. Then there is the other things I mentioned. I could be wrong, of course, but I think it is safer to presume the cutoff is around 1975 than to speculate that it might be many years after that. But each person can decide whatever he wants

Have you posted them? not think, that I have seen one (or maybe one once on a German forum), and I am experienced collector, so is surprising to me, that they are everywhere on ebay.

I think we are misunderstanding each other. I thought you were saying that looking at 1st Model stuff that the 1958 date is hard to find. In my opinion it is not. Finding 1st Model stuff (of any date) vs. 2nd Model stuff is, of course, very difficult. I said that and even speculated that for every 100-200 2nd Model item seen there's probably only one 1st Model item seen for the same time period. So if your point is that the 1st Model stuff is hard to find, we are in agreement. If you are saying that 1958 items are much harder to find than 1959 items, I don't necessarily agree with that.

I think you exaggerate here though, or this was long time ago!

Looking at my notes and what I have now, I've had a total of 6x 1st Model jackets and at least 5x trousers. I just put away the ones I've kept, but I did see that one of the trousers I sold was definitely 1958, two of the jackets were 1959, and one was unmarked (or faded beyond recognition). When I have a chance I'll look at the three jackets and two trousers I still have and see what their dates are. I never considered it a priority to know what the dates are as to me 1958 is only important because it marks the start of production. Proportions of 1958 vs. 1959 makes no difference to me.

Steve

[Collectinsteve]

Found these interesting photos from American soldier of BGS with Sumpftarn parkas in mid 1980s. Some BGS veterans mention the jackets still issued at this time too, but I think 1982 is latest, that I have seen photographic evidence (so far). The mixture of footwear (laced combat boots and Knobelbecher) is interesting.

http://www.eaglehorse.org/2_border_m...d_prescott.htm

Fantastic pictures!! Thanks for sharing. I wonder what the logic was of breaking out the parkas out of storage.

What trousers do you think they are wearing? The Einsatzhose from the time period had pockets on the legs, but I don't see any.

Good shots of the beret in use too.

Steve

[Gene T]

Fantastic pictures!!
What trousers do you think they are wearing? The Einsatzhose from the time period had pockets on the legs, but I don't see any.

Hmm, smooth-legged pants? Can they be some version of these?




My sieve-like brain can no longer recall if I had posted these before. If I had, and was told what they actually are, I can no longer remember what I had learned. I hope it's not early onset dementia!

There is no legible marking left in any of the usual places, not even a size label or stamp. The presence of the old-fashioned fob pocket and loop, and elasticized side take-up straps make me think these are probably not from the '80s. The cuff cinches suggest these were meant to be worn with boots. The material is a very fine-grained cotton moleskin.

I picked these out of a pile of surplus trousers of mixed origin.

[Klaus1989]

I think we are misunderstanding each other. I thought you were saying that looking at 1st Model stuff that the 1958 date is hard to find. In my opinion it is not. Finding 1st Model stuff (of any date) vs. 2nd Model stuff is, of course, very difficult. I said that and even speculated that for every 100-200 2nd Model item seen there's probably only one 1st Model item seen for the same time period. So if your point is that the 1st Model stuff is hard to find, we are in agreement. If you are saying that 1958 items are much harder to find than 1959 items, I don't necessarily agree with that.



Looking at my notes and what I have now, I've had a total of 6x 1st Model jackets and at least 5x trousers. I just put away the ones I've kept, but I did see that one of the trousers I sold was definitely 1958, two of the jackets were 1959, and one was unmarked (or faded beyond recognition). When I have a chance I'll look at the three jackets and two trousers I still have and see what their dates are. I never considered it a priority to know what the dates are as to me 1958 is only important because it marks the start of production. Proportions of 1958 vs. 1959 makes no difference to me.

Steve

Every first model, that I have seen in past several years for sale was 1959 dated, so I must unfortunately still disagree. It sound like you purchased most of your pieces much longer ago though and base judgements on that, rather than what has been on market more recently, so that is probably reason for our different observations...

The only real difference for early production jackets from 1958 is the lack of shoulderboard loops, which is my interest. Otherwise is only a date and would not care. But this is very OT from a random comment I made as example in a post.

Fantastic pictures!! Thanks for sharing. I wonder what the logic was of breaking out the parkas out of storage.

What trousers do you think they are wearing?

The Einsatzhose from the time period had pockets on the legs, but I don't see any.

Because they not break them out of storage, they were still issued this late for field exercises! It took long time for some units to receive new uniforms. Einsatzhosen were already phased out in mid-late 70s. Trousers are for the Mehrzweckanzug (introduced 1973), could be the earlier schwarzgrün instead of moss green introduced after 1976 (except for GSG 9), but hard to tell.

btw completely different from Gene T's trousers. Not sure what his are, material look similar to BGS summer tunic worn in 1950s-60s, but the elastic bands are more 60s feature.

Regards
Klaus