BGS BundesGrenzSchutz

[Redleg]

Steve: What is a US Army cadet?

This is the only caption I have seen and I believe the author may have mis-identified the trooper on the right as an American PFC.

"A West German soldier on a joint exercise with American troops in 1960. The Germans used the FAL briefly in the late 1950s and early 1960s under the designation Gewehr G1."

[Guardian 5]

Redleg - Your dogged devotion to this issue is worthy of the other red clad men, the Canadian Mounties….

The original caption for this 1960 photo read "U.S. Cadet (Douglas V. Johnson II) and W. German Cadet on a field training problem, W.Germany." The photo is currently attributed to the U.S. Army History Center at Carlisle Barracks.

The preliminary sources of officers for the United States Army are the Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC), the United States Military Academy at West Point, and the Officer Candidate school at Fort Benning, Georgia. Aspiring officers enrolled in civilian college ROTC or West Point are termed “cadets”. The poor bastards in OCS are called "candidates".

During the fall and winter, ROTC and West Point cadets study like normal college students. Come spring and summer, they ruck up and move out to various and sundry military training programs. During the summer before they graduate, select cadets are entered into the Cadet Troop Leading Training (CTLT) program. In this program, cadets are shipped out world-wide and are assigned as platoon leaders in active army units. This training is designed to prepare them for the time when they will assume command of their own platoons after graduation and commissioning.

Cadet Johnson was one of these lucky cadets. It is very common for cadets assigned to CTLT in Germany to spend time with BW and BGS. During my time in Germany as an Army officer in the late 1980s, my unit was assigned with CTLT cadets. Prior to their coming to our unit, they spent some time with the BGS. At one point they made a visit to the Inner German Border. There, they exchanged headgear with the BGS. When the East German Grenztruppen took note of the NATO soldiers in woodland pattern camouflage wearing “mussgrun” berets, they went into a photo-snapping frenzy.

Included below is a photo of two American officers wearing BW steel pots on a field problem with the BW. I guess there are times, as we saw with CDT Johnson, that US personnel were issued with German gear while training with German units.

There are early patterns of the arbeitsanzug that look like US patterns but Johnson is not wearing these. He is wearing US Army pattern fatigues.

I hope this posting serves to clear up some of the confusion caused by brother Johnson.

All the best - TJ

[sammlermws]

Very interesting...Notice the US Soldier in the upper left of the photo is a Parachute Rigger. Doesn't seem like the type to be in the field.

[sammlermws]

I hope not to side track too much but talking about US Soldiers using German gear, I remembered these photos.
While stationed in Germany in 1998, we did some training with the Germans and we were issued the G3, 2 mag pouches, 5 mags, a BFA, cleaning kit and a pot helmet.

[Collectinsteve]

Thanks for the follow up TJ! At some point either a German or an American soldier from the early 1960s said something about cross attached US soldiers being kitted out in BW stuff to hide from spying eyes.


sammlermws, thanks for the photos! It's relevant in the sense that it shows another example of how photos without proper context can be deceiving. We know US soldiers were never issued G3s, we know BW didn't wear Woodland BDUs. Which means your photos, without captions, could be misunderstood.

Though none of this has anything to do with BGS

Steve

[Marksharky]

I think it is important to keep in mind that when it comes to the military, at least the US military, one can not look at things in "absolutes". As any of us who served int he US military know, it is rife with exceptions and quirky, non regulation goings-on...........
For instance, I have photos of myself during my time in the USCG in the 1980's, wearing a US Army M65 jacket of 1960's vintage, with two US Army medic patches on the the shoulders, with Coast Guard name tapes sewn on. Those jackets were not official issue and not authorized and the medic patches were totally incorrect, but we wore things like that anyway......... but I guess we were in the Coast Guard in the '80's, so that may explain a lot! There were a number of other bits and pieces of uniforms that were worn here and there that were alsos not authorized or issued, but were commonly worn none-the-less. I wonder what would happen if those photos ever made their way into the hands of a "historical investigator"?

It is easy to look at the rules and regulations of a particular service as some sort of "absolute law" when it is actually the exceptions like we see in these photos that are the most interesting. There is an exception to every rule.......

Just my early AM thoughts

[Asbjoern]

...these are the cases when reenactors of all ages split there displasy up between "parade" and "campaign" stile...

Jens

[Redleg]

Thanks for the info Steve. I was one of the poor bastards in OCS are called "candidates".

[giorgios]

Unfortunately haven't got any leather BW 'Y' straps, but here are some E German & Austrian ones, if somebody can post some W German ones:



214 by rjkg, on Flickr


215 by rjkg, on Flickr



211 by rjkg, on Flickr


210 by rjkg, on Flickr



The Austrian ones have the padding and the E German ones are slightly butchered !

something is wrong with the east german ones...they are not just butchered but also extended with these extra narrow pieces of leather joining the shoulder portions & the rear strap with the O-ring...

[RJKG]

I've no knowledge of any other E German 'Y' straps, but did think the 'extensions' were a bit strrange, however, there's no sign of any tampering or overstitching. Out of interest they're stamped 'Mdi '.
Maybe I should post them on the DDR forum.

[uscob]

I've no knowledge of any other E German 'Y' straps, but did think the 'extensions' were a bit strrange, however, there's no sign of any tampering or overstitching. Out of interest they're stamped 'Mdi '.
Maybe I should post them on the DDR forum.

I had a load of them too and they came from a Fire Service Depot.

[uscob]

Nico,

Is that embroidered directly onto the beret?

Guys,

This picture has been discussed at length on this Forum and is being discussed in another current thread:



The soldier on the right is Bundeswehr, the soldier on the left is a US Army "Cadet". Most of his equipment is American, but the rifle and equipment are BW. There is an original caption with this picture that states these facts and also names the two individuals. Therefore, there is no doubt

Michel is correct about the canteen. The BH used an identical canteen for a very short period of time.

Steve

Steve, it's embroidered seperately and handsewn to the Beret. I was told that they used them when the original woven one was damaged as it was easier to replace as the woven ones.

[Collectinsteve]

Nico,

Thanks for the answer. Mine is like that. It looked so "cheap" I always assumed it was done by a collector after the original was removed and lost.

Steve

[Gene T]

I've no knowledge of any other E German 'Y' straps, but did think the 'extensions' were a bit strrange, however, there's no sign of any tampering or overstitching. Out of interest they're stamped 'Mdi '.
Maybe I should post them on the DDR forum.

I took the liberty of highlighting the signs of modification on these straps for you, RJKG. I hope it's ok with you.



To me, it seems very clear that "A" was once sewn to "B", and "C" was part of the short strap that was once riveted to "D" (you can still clearly see what's left of these straps attached to the backside of one of the "D" rivets). The original stitch marks are plainly visible, as are the sizing holes on the short strap remnants turned extension pieces (highlighted).

What is strange is that whoever performed the modification chose to rivet the "B" pieces back on, even though they no longer served any possible purpose without the "A" rings. They also didn't bother to remove those big "D" rivets, now also rendered useless, likely due to the fact that drilling them out would have been both unnecessary and more troublesome than ripping out the stitches.

As for the reason behind the modification, a casual comparison between these straps and the Bundesheer model shows that the original straps were very short indeed (just like their wartime predecessors), making them unsuitable for wear over thick clothing (Nico's revelation of a potential fire service link certainly adds relevancy to the bulky clothing hypothesis), unless one doesn't mind wearing one's belt under one's armpit.

In any case, this thing may be a tad too ugly to be a fantasy creation of some surplus merchant, but it fits right in with so many other examples of Prussian frugality when it comes to equipment reuse...


Gene T

[RJKG]

Gene,
Many thanks for your comments, they certainly seem to add up, although the replacement of the 'D' ring retainers does seem strange. If you're correct in your assumptions I wonder whether this was a generic modification, as it appears to have been done quite professionally.

RJKG