BGS BundesGrenzSchutz

[Collectinsteve]

For what it's worth, I have seen Austrian leather Y-straps that have been repaired. If you look closely you can see some very minor differences. I have also seen various pieces of military equipment "reworked" for another purpose. Therefore, to me it doesn't surprise me that the DDR straps have seen repairs/modifications.

Steve

[Marksharky]

1952 - 1953 BGS Non-Reg Uniform

Since this discussion thread got a bit off of the BGS theme with the discussion on US soldiers wearing and using German gear, I thought I'd take that line of discussion and direct it back to the BGS............ While searching and researching on the web, for early BGS photos and information, I stumbled across this photo archive :

http://www.wendland-archiv.de/

The site is a gold mine of photos from the Wenland region of Germany. There are quite a number of Zoll, Fire, and BGS photos mixed in. One of the photos in the archive is quite interesting. It shows three BGS troopers and is dated as 1952 or 1953. The interesting thing about this photos is the non-regulation neck scarf that the trooper on the right, seems to be wearing. I think this ties nicely into the theme of non-regulation things that seem to pop up from time to time in the old photos...

Here is a link to the specific photo on the archive page: http://www.wendland-archiv.de/detail...bei+Harpe/7920

And here is the photo:



I look forward to hearing more from the other forum members and their insight into this photo.

[Gordon Craig]

Marksharky,

That site is a gold mine for early uniform pictures. Thanks very much for posting it.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gene T]

Marksharky,

That site is a gold mine for early uniform pictures. Thanks very much for posting it.

Regards,

Gordon

I'd second that!

Sorry to stray away from BGS again but I find many of the Feuerwehr photos particularly interesting, such as this one here:



original link: http://www.wendland-archiv.de/details/Feuerwehr/8425

I had no idea that so many firemen were issued with (or continued to wear their old) 8-button M1920 and 6-button M1928 style service tunics all the way into the 1960s! If it wasn't for the Bundesadler behind these men, one might mistake this for a picture taken three decades earlier at first glance.

And those hats! There has got to be a few re-cycled oldies in there...


Gene T

[Guardian 5]

Mark - I too find the non-regulation scarf very interesting as the BGS was a stickler for uniformity.

What's also intriguing to me is that the Beretta SMG (MP 38/49 or BGS MP1)
held by the individual on the far left seems to be missing its buttstock. It would also appear that the trooper on the far right is equipped with a Kar 98k and one set of ammo pouches.

That site is without a doubt an absolute goldmine and will be fueling many a thread in the weeks to come. How about those color Zoll pictures!

Great job Mark!

All the best - TJ

Since this discussion thread got a bit off of the BGS theme with the discussion on US soldiers wearing and using German gear, I thought I'd take that line of discussion and direct it back to the BGS............ While searching and researching on the web, for early BGS photos and information, I stumbled across this photo archive :

http://www.wendland-archiv.de/

The site is a gold mine of photos from the Wenland region of Germany. There are quite a number of Zoll, Fire, and BGS photos mixed in. One of the photos in the archive is quite interesting. It shows three BGS troopers and is dated as 1952 or 1953. The interesting thing about this photos is the non-regulation neck scarf that the trooper on the right, seems to be wearing. I think this ties nicely into the theme of non-regulation things that seem to pop up from time to time in the old photos...

Here is a link to the specific photo on the archive page: http://www.wendland-archiv.de/detail...bei+Harpe/7920

And here is the photo:



I look forward to hearing more from the other forum members and their insight into this photo.

[Marksharky]

I'm glad that the photos are reinvigorating the discussion! I have started hunting for old photos in the various local photo archives that are popping up on the regional German sites. I am finding that many city and regional sites have been archiving historical photos that have been scanned from personal albums. I have not found an easy way to find these archives. This seems to be one of the best and largest I've found yet!

Very interesting to note the "sawed off" sub-machine gun in the BGS photo as well.......... I think these photos really illustrate that when officers get out of the spotlight, they don't exactly follow the uniform manual! It is this kind of variety that gets me excited about collecting and researching all over again!

[Collectinsteve]

Hi TJ,

What's also intriguing to me is that the Beretta SMG (MP 38/49 or BGS MP1)
held by the individual on the far left seems to be missing its buttstock.

This has bothered me since I saw the photo as well. Just doesn't seem right. Today I found a better explanation while researching the PPS family of SMGs:

"In 1953, the West German border guards (Bundesgrenzschutz) adopted the Spanish-made DUX-53 and DUX-59 submachine guns, copied from the PPS-43 by way of the Finnish M/44."

Another, generally very reliable, source confirms this:

http://world.guns.ru/smg/de/dux-m53-m59-e.html

Considering the G1's origins are also Spanish (CETME), this isn't very surprising.

It would also appear that the trooper on the far right is equipped with a Kar 98k and one set of ammo pouches.

Traditionally German Police often had only one ammo pouch. Maybe early BGS practice mimicked this?

Steve

[chiffonnier]

this parka I always thought was GSG9 issue from the BGS.
same features as on the usual parkas.
you can see where the badges have been.
the label on the photo is that from the lining.
the jacket itself has exactly the same label,but printed in black.
is it GSG9 ?
all the best,
kees

[chiffonnier]

you will recognise those 2 D-rings at the back.
it's basicly the same parka as in post 176,but then in black.

[Gordon Craig]

kees,

Interesting question. Definitely a BGS coat and one similar to this was worn by other members of the BGS who were not GSG9 but in green. Black would seem to point toward GSG9. I have pictures of GSG9 guys in their combat gear with BGS officers next to them wearing this type of parka but since the photos are in black and white it is not possible to tell what colour the coat is. Perhaps someone has better info than I.

Regards,

Gordon

[chiffonnier]

ok ,thanks Gordon,and if someone would like additional photo's I'll make them.
and one of my questions is really;what colour BGS badges do I need.
I have the green ,but never put them on because it might be black ones.

[Gordon Craig]

kees,

Another good question that I can not answer. I have never seen a black BGS arm badge. I have seen dark green background with silver eagle. Another question-if this was a GSG9 jacket would they have worn the GSG9 badge on it?

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

Interesting!

My first thought when I saw this was an overdyed BGS green parka. But the buttons would be green, not blue. Then I reread the initial post and saw that apparently the label on the jacket is white backing with black lettering. Correct? If so, then it's not overdyed anyway.

My second thought was a THW parka. Their clothing closely mimicked BGS and BW items at least up through the 1970s. However, I did some checking and they did in fact introduce a BGS style parka in 1968 that looks just like this *except* no arm pocket and they used BW style buttons and not BGS style. So I guess THW is out as an option unless they had more than one model (a search only turned up 2 references, both to the same type as seen here

Third thought was BGS See. I have no photos of their stuff, but I kinda doubt this anyway.

So I dunno... could be GSG-9, though I thought their uniforms were general a dark green and not gray or black except for their Kombis? I know they have a dark green uniform for sure and on that are standard BGS green badges.

Like Gordon, I've never seen black backed BGS badges with silver embroidery.

So it's a mystery

Steve

[ReinerMB42]

Parka

Good morning Gents,


the Parka could be an DRK (Deutsches Rotes Kreuz= German
Red Cross) one. They used dark grey stuff. Also the MHD
(Malteser Hilfsdienst),and the Johanniter Unfallhilfe (Johanniter
accident help service),both humanitary organisations, do.

Hope that helps.

Best regards from snowy Germany

Reiner

[chiffonnier]

thanks evereybody for reacting and I've made some additional pictures.
it's definitly black and not grey and I've made one photo with flash and one without.
you see how much lighting can make a difference because it looks blue in one.
this is the photo of the jacket's label.
as for the johaniter or maltese cross organisations,I think the shape of the removed badges rules those out.
I have some tunics of both and they are indeed grey.
perhaps one detail in determing what this parka is,is that it's unissued.
and yet they've removed the badges.
I hope you like these little mysteries.
all the best,
kees