BGS BundesGrenzSchutz

[Collectinsteve]

Interesting shirt, TJ!!

I've got two distinct weights of the long sleeve shirt. I'm not sure if they are date related or one was for winter and the other summer? No idea! But the design of the two are identical and unlike the one you have. Maybe you have a private purchase shirt for a more senior officer? The provision for cuff links doesn't sound like something lower ranks would want.

I think the stitch marks would be pretty obvious for a BGS badge configuration. Since you don't see anything then it's probably not BGS. I don't know of Justiz or other judicial organizations used their own versions of the standard uniform or not.

Keep in mind that these shirts are all designed to be worn without the jacket. In fact, I would guess that most Polizei/BGS personnel spend most of their time in the shirts than in their jackets.

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Nachrichten,

Interesting BGS site. Thanks for posting the link.

Steve,

I'm going to have to disagree with your comment that these shirts were made to be worn without a tunic. They were worn both with and without the service dress and with the work dress style uniform. Unless, of course, you are referring only to this specific shirt.

Steve,
Iam editing this to explain my comments above. They were only to make sure that those visitors to the forum who are not native English speakers understand we are talking about a style of shirt and not necessarily all yellow shirts.

TJ,

I doubt very much if this shirt is BGS. It appears to be darker than a BGS shirt or a polizei shirt. With the buttons that are left this particular shirt would appear to be purpose made to be worn without a tunic but the French cuffs really are unusual except in a dress uniform as in the shirts for the gesellschaft uniform. The darker colour may be because it was from a tailor and not from regular BGS or polizei suppliers. More things to research!

Cheers,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

TJ,

Some additional comments. As you are aware, arm badges for both the BGS and polizei were in wear before the yellow shirts were worn. Doesn't make a lot of sense that this shirt has no evidence of an armbadge being removed if it was either BGS or ploizei. I've never seen anything remotely similar in wear by either organization. I'll dig through my reference material but I don't hold up much of a chance to find anything.

Regards,

Gordon.

[Collectinsteve]

Gordon,

I agree this shirt TJ has is not likely either BGS or Polizei. The lack of evidence of BGS badges certainly rules out BGS in my opinion. The stitch marks should be very obvious. It also sounds like we should rule out Polizei because the arm shields were always worn and also would be obvious. If this is government issue I would guess it is Justiz or some other organization within the judicial side of the German government.

As for my comments about the shirts, let me clarify. The standard issue long and short sleeve yellow shirts were designed to be worn without the 4 pocket jacket. The identification shield was always sewn onto the left arm and rank was worn on the shoulders when the jacket wasn't in use. Same issue with the current blue shirts.

Here's a really nice picture with lots of interesting uniform variants to look at, including yellow shirts with two exposed buttons per pocket! I've never seen that before.

Steve



This picture is from 2007 as the transition from green to blue uniforms was just starting. Here is the link for the picture:

http://www.gdp-bundespolizei.de/category/reiterstaffel/

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

Great picture. Interesting to compare the wear of the long sleeved shirts and ties by the guys wearing riding pants versus the short sleeved open necked shirts by the other polizei. I realize that the long sleeved shirt could be worn without the tunic. That wasn't the point of my comments but I think we understand what each of us was trying to say.
I'll have to look into your suggestion that Justiz or some similar organization could have worn a similar shirt. Interesting comment. For some reason I never think of them.

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

I never think of those other sub-groups either. Probably because this post of mine is longer than my knowledge of Justiz! For collectors, at least, I don't think there is much documentation. Certainly not much in English.

Steve

[Nachrichten]

Try this link:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKKX3a9dUUE

There is a Part 2 (Teil 2) that you may find interesting as well.

It's here:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uribz...eature=related

Enjoy.

N

[Nachrichten]

For a 'day in the life of', this is an interesting link too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qEKFat6O-8

N

[Nachrichten]

A couple of things that arise from the last post:-

1. Note the fliegerkombi worn by the chopper pilots. It's not leather.

2. Note the vehicle uniform worn by the armoured vehicle crews. It is leather.

As for the preceeding post, anyone ever seen one of the BGS vehicle berets? They were obviously in wear in 1971. The colour of the film may be faded, but those berets are NOT BW ones (they are much darker).

Last comment. There is a third part to the '20th Anniversary' special. You might wish to look at the last couple of frames. If I'm not mistaken, the Grenzers are in their cammo uniforms - on the border. Most unusual.

N

[Gordon Craig]

Nachrichten,

Very interesting films. Like you, I have never seen the armoured berets in wear by the BGS. I agree they are not BW as they are much darker in colour. Now I will know enough to be on the look out for one. Lots we done' know about the uniforms worn by the BGS, especially in the early years. The first set of videos cetainly shows the type of visor cap worn during the 70s and good shots of the matt finish on the helmets from this same time period. Really good reference for uniforms of the time pweriod.
One think that confuses me. In the first two videos you posted some soldiers are wearing brown belts with their uniforms amd others black. The camera was moving too quickly for me to come to any conclusions as to who wore which one. Any suggestions?

Regards,

Gordon

[Guardian 5]

Gents - In examining the mystery shirt in better light the other day, I could detect the faint outline of chevrons that had been removed from each sleeve.

They were shaped roughly like the below sketch. Is there a Polizei expert out there who could I.D. the shirt by the chevrons it once sported?

Is there anyone out there who would like to trade a BGS long sleeve shirt for a genuine BRD mystery shirt? - Sorry, buttons not included...

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

All the best - TJ

[Nachrichten]

"One think that confuses me. In the first two videos you posted some soldiers are wearing brown belts with their uniforms amd others black. The camera was moving too quickly for me to come to any conclusions as to who wore which one. Any suggestions?"


The belts are black for Manschaften (Grenzjaeger to Meister). For Meister and above (to Generalmajor/Brigadegeneral) the belt is brown (offiziere).

Check this site:-

http://www.bundesgrenzschutz.heinzjo...ienstgrade.htm

Some interesting material here (and from a veteran of the BGS).

N

[Guardian 5]

A couple of things that arise from the last post:-

1. Note the fliegerkombi worn by the chopper pilots. It's not leather.

2. Note the vehicle uniform worn by the armoured vehicle crews. It is leather.

As for the preceeding post, anyone ever seen one of the BGS vehicle berets? They were obviously in wear in 1971. The colour of the film may be faded, but those berets are NOT BW ones (they are much darker).

Last comment. There is a third part to the '20th Anniversary' special. You might wish to look at the last couple of frames. If I'm not mistaken, the Grenzers are in their cammo uniforms - on the border. Most unusual.

N

Nachrichten - Great films!

It's funny how our collector's eyes are calibrated. The first thing that jumped out at me was the dark green crash helmet that appeared at about the 1:30 mark in the film.

There was a lot to enjoy in those films, but I have to say I loved the vehicles the best. There was lots of great footage of the Land Rover 88, Mercedes-Benz 170 D, BGS Unimogs, Sonderwagen 2 and Sonderwagen 3 (Alvis Saladin 601). What was really cool is how they loaded the Sonderwagen M8 (Greyhound Armored Car) onto the low boy. First, take the rear wheels off the low boy; second, load the M8 onto the bed of the truck; and third the put rear wheels back on. I had no idea it worked that way. That M8 was absolutey pristine; not a dent on her.

Great stuff all around; I'll be watching these for a while.

All the best - TJ

[Gordon Craig]

Gents - In examining the mystery shirt in better light the other day, I could detect the faint outline of chevrons that had been removed from each sleeve.

They were shaped roughly like the below sketch. Is there a Polizei expert out there who could I.D. the shirt by the chevrons it once sported?

Is there anyone out there who would like to trade a BGS long sleeve shirt for a genuine BRD mystery shirt? - Sorry, buttons not included...

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

All the best - TJ

TJ,

There were no Polizei rank badges on shirts, or tunics, of the shape you drew that I am aware of. They used bars on the cuffs of their tunics, ranks on the collar tabs or ranks on the shoulder boards. Still a mystery but I doubt very much if it is a BRD polizei shirt.

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

I saw one of those BGS crash helmets on eBay years ago. I wasn't so into BGS at the time so I didn't go for it. I don't remember how much it went for, but I would assume a lot more than I wanted to spend.

Hamburg has chevron rank similar to that, but pointed side down. Plus, they were worn on both arms and would have been pre 1976/78. You know, before that color shirt entered into service. So like Gordon, I can't think of anything that would fit. Remember, after 1976/78 all Polizei were wearing the same rank across the entire country. So I think we can safely rule Polizei out.

Steve