Why Japan surrendered in 1945?

[Josh Cowell]

So basically he is saying that the bomb was dropped for nothing - indirectly accusing the US of a war crime. That is the sort of BS I would expect from a Japanese point of view. They had it coming, they have never apologised for what they did to the POWs - they should have dropped more.

The should've dropped more bombs? Wow that says a lot about you as a person... Wow.

[Josh Cowell]

Killerbee's woords " I think if you witness the horrors of war up front and personal, and not from a distance, you develop a different point of view and perspective. Especially when it comes to women and children. That is why you see a lot of pilots that can't stop bragging and talking about their combat experiences and loving it... and in contrast, the common foot soldier who would rather forget and never talk about what happened." are indeed spot on.

As for international law, using a WMD against civilians is and was clearly a war crime.

As for the "sex slaves" issue, one should bear in mind that Asians had and have much diffrent view to sex than puritans.

I also remember reading that some Americans "really did have fun in killing" e.g. in North Africa by shooting Bedouins for target practice and making Bedouin children "dance" by shooting at their feet. During the Spanish-American War American servicemen interrogated locals by forcing them to drink water until their stomachs ruptured. Nobody was ever convicted for these crimes and no apology has been ever issued.

As for murdering merchant sailors, it was a standard practice by American airmen to strafe possible survivors from sunken ships. The way many pilots describe this it given a feeling that they were "really having fun in the killing".

So perhaps before pointing fingers at others one should make sure that one's own house is in order first.

Well said Pasoleati. You have your heart in the right place, which is a whole lot more than some here.

[Josh Cowell]

Passie,

Then rape and forced sex was and is their different view to sex the Asians have.

Thanks for the information as I didn't know that it was part of their culture.

Best regards

Eric-Jan

You forget that the Geneva convention/ Hague are based on Christian concepts. The rest of the world does not and has not believed in such things since warfare began. I live in the East now and I know for a fact that rapine and murder during war is normal here. As they say here when I talk about ISIS and WW2 atrocities, "such things are normal in war." These are things that Asians who experienced WW2 and the Korean and Vietnam war have said to me. In addition, Korean soldiers have told me in a very nonchalant manner that they used to skin alive Vietnamese villagers in revenge for partisan/insurgent attacks on Korean soldiers. It was the right thing to do to avenge their comrades. No thoughts of morality for the civilians comes into play. It is not even an issue. It is a fact of life. No one cries out for justice in Korea for such atrocities today. No one beats their chests about justice. It is a fact of life. Here in the East as in the rest of the non western world attitudes are very different. Rape, murder, revenge, power over the weak are seen in a completely different way than in the west. The strong is justified here and westerns ideas of justice and morality are considered weak and considered luxuries for "others." You need to understand that the non western world sees things in a way that has always been so since the beginning of human history. You should not see their world through your eyes or you are being naive and "sheltered."

You are looking at war in a modern, detached (ie non participant) and modern Western way. If you fought a war, especially for survival, and not from a view point where you are not going to be destroyed, then you would know that the rest of the world does not care about niceties. I have aunts who were raped and executed in front of their families. This has always been part of the way people in Asia have waged war and and it is certainly a reflection of Asian society during times of peace. We in the west today are very sheltered. Do not forget that even into the 1600's during the 30 year war, Europeans were raping, murdering civilians and cutting up captured soldiers and catapulting them to the enemy to terrorise them. War is brutal and PC has no place in survival. Do not judge those that have experienced war. It's like judging hunters when you yourself enjoy eating meat from the supermarket. Really.

[Seigfried]

The should've dropped more bombs? Wow that says a lot about you as a person... Wow.

They sowed the wind...you know the rest of the proverb presumably. Until they apologise for their babarous crimes I'll stick to my point of view thank you.

I never thought I'd see an apologist/sympathiser for Japanese War Crimes on here - you do not say where you live, just a vague hint that it is in the east - well maybe your judgement has been tainted if you live in this area, and you need to have a good look at yourself. I'd dare you to stand in a bar of FEPOW and say such things.

[Eric JB]

You forget that the Geneva convention/ Hague are based on Christian concepts. The rest of the world does not and has not believed in such things since warfare began. I live in the East now and I know for a fact that rapine and murder during war is normal here. As they say here when I talk about ISIS and WW2 atrocities, "such things are normal in war." These are things that Asians who experienced WW2 and the Korean and Vietnam war have said to me. In addition, Korean soldiers have told me in a very nonchalant manner that they used to skin alive Vietnamese villagers in revenge for partisan/insurgent attacks on Korean soldiers. It was the right thing to do to avenge their comrades. No thoughts of morality for the civilians comes into play. It is not even an issue. It is a fact of life. No one cries out for justice in Korea for such atrocities today. No one beats their chests about justice. It is a fact of life. Here in the East as in the rest of the non western world attitudes are very different. Rape, murder, revenge, power over the weak are seen in a completely different way than in the west. The strong is justified here and westerns ideas of justice and morality are considered weak and considered luxuries for "others." You need to understand that the non western world sees things in a way that has always been so since the beginning of human history. You should not see their world through your eyes or you are being naive and "sheltered."

You are looking at war in a modern, detached (ie non participant) and modern Western way. If you fought a war, especially for survival, and not from a view point where you are not going to be destroyed, then you would know that the rest of the world does not care about niceties. I have aunts who were raped and executed in front of their families. This has always been part of the way people in Asia have waged war and and it is certainly a reflection of Asian society during times of peace. We in the west today are very sheltered. Do not forget that even into the 1600's during the 30 year war, Europeans were raping, murdering civilians and cutting up captured soldiers and catapulting them to the enemy to terrorise them. War is brutal and PC has no place in survival. Do not judge those that have experienced war. It's like judging hunters when you yourself enjoy eating meat from the supermarket. Really.

Josh, you can't be serious.

In the past 50 years I have seen a lot, have read and heard a lot of nonsense but your reply is really over the top crap.

So next time when someone mentions the IS (yes they did change their name) atrocities you will come up with this nonsense again.

"It's like judging hunters when you yourself enjoy eating meat from the supermarket. Really"

"I have aunts who were raped and executed in front of their families" maybe normal for you, part of culture and business as usual, seems that there is nothing wrong with it in your point of view, but not for me - sorry.

Best regards

Eric-Jan

[Josh Cowell]

They sowed the wind...you know the rest of the proverb presumably. Until they apologise for their babarous crimes I'll stick to my point of view thank you.

I never thought I'd see an apologist/sympathiser for Japanese War Crimes on here - you do not say where you live, just a vague hint that it is in the east - well maybe your judgement has been tainted if you live in this area, and you need to have a good look at yourself. I'd dare you to stand in a bar of FEPOW and say such things.

I'm the apologist for feeling outraged that you not only apologised, but agreed with the bombing of civilians? On here? Why? Is the WAF only for people who condone the killing of Japanese civilians simply because they are not white? Is it okay to believe in the lives of others, while denying the rest that equal right cos they aren't white? You take a good look at yourself mate. I never thought I'd see an apologist for Allied war crimes against hundreds of thousands of civilians here on WAF. And I dare YOU to stand in a bar in Japan and say such things. I am not Japanese, but I am totally outraged that anyone could be so hypocritically racist and self righteous.

[Josh Cowell]

Josh, you can't be serious.

In the past 50 years I have seen a lot, have read and heard a lot of nonsense but your reply is really over the top crap.

So next time when someone mentions the IS (yes they did change their name) atrocities you will come up with this nonsense again.

"It's like judging hunters when you yourself enjoy eating meat from the supermarket. Really"

"I have aunts who were raped and executed in front of their families" maybe normal for you, part of culture and business as usual, seems that there is nothing wrong with it in your point of view, but not for me - sorry.

Best regards

Eric-Jan

Nonsense and crap? Look Eric-Jan, as I tried to make clear in my post, you are still living in the sheltered west have no idea what the rest of the world does during wars and their attitude towards atrocities. That is the reason why you think my post was "nonsense" and "crap." I have simply stated facts and the feelings and attitudes of people here, yet you immediately dismiss my information as crap. That just goes to show how narrow minded and bound up in your own little bubble you are. All these 50 years.... As I said, you are sheltered and naive and cannot perceive the world through others' eyes except through your own. And I'm the one speaking nonsense? Sorry, but reality doesn't work that way.

And I never said that it was "business as usual" that my aunts were raped and executed by North Korean soldiers. When did I say that? Once again, you have read into my facts, what you wanted through your own myopia. I said that even though these atrocities happened, it was a fact of life for people here and that life is hard and cruel for rest of humanity. Of course it is not okay for anyone, but that is war. These people experienced war in the most savage way. And how would you know? Have you lived here deeply embedded in the history, society and lives of these people? The fact that you choose to insult me for pointing out these truths as I have been told says a lot about you. How arrogant of you to dismiss the experiences and attitudes of people who have suffered through wars, as if they could not possibly be right even though it is them and not you that experienced them. Please...

[codytrcollector]

The "facts" of war don't entitle one to rape a innocent women or child, just as because something "has always been a certain way" it doesn't make it right. And if I may ask, what war(s) did you serve in, Josh? Or are you too just a "supermarket" boy with a opinion? This thread is becoming just like all the others of its kind, pointless.

[Gary Jucha]

h

I've watched the film "Samurai" with Tom Crusie .. doe's this count towards cultural awareness ??

[codytrcollector]

I'm the apologist for feeling outraged that you not only apologised, but agreed with the bombing of civilians? On here? Why? Is the WAF only for people who condone the killing of Japanese civilians simply because they are not white? Is it okay to believe in the lives of others, while denying the rest that equal right cos they aren't white? You take a good look at yourself mate. I never thought I'd see an apologist for Allied war crimes against hundreds of thousands of civilians here on WAF. And I dare YOU to stand in a bar in Japan and say such things. I am not Japanese, but I am totally outraged that anyone could be so hypocritically racist and self righteous.

Ha! And you're not?!? Are you not the one basically supporting rape and murder, "because it's a fact of war"? Talk about hypocritical....please refer to your comments in post 18.
What I don't understand is how the Untied States is being crucified here. If Japan never attacked Pearl Harbor(where civilians perished) the Untied States wouldn't of ever entered the war(at minimum, not until being provoked in some fashion) and the two bombs wouldn't have been dropped...hypothetically speaking.

[Peter J.]

"War is hell", Ulysses S. Grant, US President 1869-1877.

[pasoleati]

"What I don't understand is how the Untied States is being crucified here. If Japan never attacked Pearl Harbor(where civilians perished) the Untied States wouldn't of ever entered the war(at minimum, not until being provoked in some fashion) and the two bombs wouldn't have been dropped...hypothetically speaking."

It is because international laws apply to all combatants, regardless of whether who attacks first whom. I find it most perverse that somebody feels one accepts Japanese war crimes by pointing out American war crimes.

If one really compares the Pearl Harbor attack to nuclear bombing a city one is beyond help. The PH attack was a perfectly legitimate attack on military target, unless you can prove that Japanese planners intented to kill as many civilians as possible. When using a WMD against a city, the intent is clear: to kill as many civilians as possible.

I find this "apology demand" very silly as well for US has never apologized its massive targeting of Korean and Vietnamese civilians in Korean and Vietnam Wars. In fact, one of the architects of the US policy of "shoot everything that moves" in Vietnam, Henry Kissinger, is still hailed as a hero in the US.

BTW, quote a few Japanese scientists conducting biological warfare experiments found new employers in the post-war US government. Seems that outrage was short-lived...

[pasoleati]

And Josh's analysis of the Asian mentality is spot on. In Europe, similar mentality exists in the Balkans.

[codytrcollector]

"If one really compares the Pearl Harbor attack to nuclear bombing a city one is beyond help".
I will do my best to reframe from a rebuttal as this conversation is obviously going nowhere, but please show me where I compared Pearl Harbor, which was an attack on a "neutral" country without declaring war, to nuclear bombing? My message, not comparison, was simply and direct; Japan made the first attack which resulted in the U.S entering the war, that's all. Note I didn't (and won't) go into war crimes as that topic is very subjective and sensitive to most. Such a conversation will only yield a argument rather than a healthy debate and that's not why I am here.

[Totenhead]

I have not studied the war in Japan in detail I admit, but did not the fire bombing of Tokyo by the USAAF kill as many civilians as the first atomic bomb??