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So basically he is saying that the bomb was dropped for nothing - indirectly accusing the US of a war crime. That is the sort of BS I would expect from a Japanese point of view. They had it coming, they have never apologised for what they did to the POWs - they should have dropped more.Originally posted by NickG View Post -
Japan still honors its war criminals as heroes.
Used POWs as slaves.
Murdered civilians.
Murdered merchant navy men and civilian passengers, evidence shows that they did really have fun in the killing.
Did rape young girls and women, used them as sex slaves for Japanese soldiers, gave them the innocent name comfort women, troostmeisjes 慰安婦 ian-fu.
Japan never officially apologized.
Humm ...... Hasegawa, I think that I do like the scale model manufacturer more than this so called highly respected historian who is talking about American war crimes when it comes to the bombing of Japan's cities.
Who cares about why Japan did surrender ?
Most important is that Japan did surrender and by that world war two did end.Comment
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Have seen an extensive documentary about this last year already. There seem to be Russian documents from those times which seem to confirm this version.
Can't remember how the documentary was named but will see if I can find it again. Very interesting to see which open new points of view.Comment
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Interesting article... but I thought all this was already common knowledge. Really nothing new for us individuals that have had a great interest in the Pacific conflict... and had relatives fighting on both sides of it.
The author has covered everything I already suspected, assumed, understood and I for one agree with his assessment and research. The only thing I do not agree with is regarding the punchline about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of having a nuke in modern times.
Jim
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I would agree that the Soviet's declaration of war more than tipped the scales. I have not seen the documentary but my argument would be that the Japanese did not think the Americans had a strong stomach for a costly invasion and there was the belief that Japan could at least keep the Americans out of Japan.
However, the Japanese knew from their brief experience in 1939 in the border war that the Soviets could and would be brutal.
The Japanese may have taken a long view that the Americans will be temporary occupiers but the Soviets would never leave!Comment
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Beside the jingoist comments on here, all I have to say is that this is already common knowledge amongst professional historians. The atomic bombs had nothing to do with Japan's surrender. As the article said most of Japan's cities had already been firebombed, Tokyo with 100,000 dead. Civilian casualties never played a factor with the Japanese military. However the Soviet invasion, and the possibility of a Communist takeover is what forced Hirohito's hand. Even then some in the military tried to launch a coup against the Emperor in order to continue the war. This is all already known. I learned this back in high school!Comment
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I concur.. although the bomb probably did open the Japanese government's eyes slightly to what a weapon like that could do. I assume the Japanese government thought that the bomb was just a more efficient and effective weapon to do what had already occurred in many cities in Japan. And if the coup succeeded, Japan would not have surrendered and history would be very different with so many more dead. I think Truman dropped the bomb to show the Russians what we had and would use against our enemies and them if need be. But I'm also sure that Truman believe that Japan surrendered due to the bomb.Originally posted by Klaus Richter View Post
My dad in WW2 was a US Marine that fought on Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Guam, Bougainville, and Iwo Jima and many of his Marines buddies had mixed feelings when they heard such a bomb was dropped on a city of women and children. They were told that the bomb ended the war and thus justified its use. They had no reason not to believe that and were happy to have it end the war. But my dad also told me that many Marines were puzzled why we did not drop it on a military location first and not on a city of women and children and why drop them so close together in time. It bothered my dad and many other Marines, but obviously not all. But what is interesting, most Navy and airmen had a total different view... they could careless. My uncle was on the aircraft carrier USS Hornet and he told me that he and his crew members top to bottom hated the Japanese and were very happy such a bomb was used... they could careless if it was on women and children. One of my girl friends dad was on the USS Nevada and he hated the Japanese until the day he died last year. It seems to me that the men (US Marines) that fought face to face with the Japanese had some respect for their adversary, which, doesn't seem to follow with the other service branches as much. I think if you witness the horrors of war up front and personal, and not from a distance, you develop a different point of view and perspective. Especially when it comes to women and children. That is why you see a lot of pilots that can't stop bragging and talking about their combat experiences and loving it... and in contrast, the common foot soldier who would rather forget and never talk about what happened.
Anyway, that is a different discussion in itself... I'm just talking out loud based on my experiences with WW2 vets.
AND I learned a new word today.. "Jingoist"... never heard that term before... where have I been all these years???... lol..
Jim
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Great post killerbee!Comment
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Killerbee's woords " I think if you witness the horrors of war up front and personal, and not from a distance, you develop a different point of view and perspective. Especially when it comes to women and children. That is why you see a lot of pilots that can't stop bragging and talking about their combat experiences and loving it... and in contrast, the common foot soldier who would rather forget and never talk about what happened." are indeed spot on.
As for international law, using a WMD against civilians is and was clearly a war crime.
As for the "sex slaves" issue, one should bear in mind that Asians had and have much diffrent view to sex than puritans.
I also remember reading that some Americans "really did have fun in killing" e.g. in North Africa by shooting Bedouins for target practice and making Bedouin children "dance" by shooting at their feet. During the Spanish-American War American servicemen interrogated locals by forcing them to drink water until their stomachs ruptured. Nobody was ever convicted for these crimes and no apology has been ever issued.
As for murdering merchant sailors, it was a standard practice by American airmen to strafe possible survivors from sunken ships. The way many pilots describe this it given a feeling that they were "really having fun in the killing".
So perhaps before pointing fingers at others one should make sure that one's own house is in order first.Comment
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Passie,
Then rape and forced sex was and is their different view to sex the Asians have.
Thanks for the information as I didn't know that it was part of their culture.
Best regards
Eric-JanComment
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Well said John, I just picked up a great book, published a while ago, The Forgotten Highlander, will be starting it soon, the introduction to the book says it allOriginally posted by Seigfried View Post Martin
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Eric, if one does study the history of wars in Asia, one can easily see that many practices not frequent in Western/European tradition have been standard practice in Asia. Or ask yourself, why "sex tourism" is from West to Asia, not the other way around...Comment
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The article seems to miss a key point. The atomic bombings were of decisive importance because they gave the Japanese leadership a way of surrendering while saving face. They privately believed that the USA couldn't have many atomic bombs left, but publicly, they could declare that there was no defense against this unprecedented new weapon.
All the politicians got what they wanted. The Japanese could surrender to the Americans with a semblance of their perception of honor, the Americans had avoided a costly invasion of Japan, while also making a statement to the USSR (as had already been done at Dresden). The Soviets took over territory by their far east, and were in position to influence events in China and Korea.
Much of the behind the scenes details are still secret to some degree, but are fascinating to explore. The Americans may not have been able to finish the bombs without hep from Nazi survivors who fled Europe on the submarines that left on secret missions at the end of the war. Japan's own nuclear program was being developed at the industrial complex near Chosin in what became North Korea. This helps explain why the 1st Marine Division was there in late 1950 and fought so hard to hold on to the area, before "advancing in another direction."
As the article mentions, nuclear weapons may not be as powerful as the public believes. Did you ever wonder why countries "test" nuclear devices? The reality is a closely guarded secret, but speculation is that the devices need to be keyed in to a specific place and time to work to full effect. What I mention in this paragraph and the preceding one may all be fictional nonsense, but there's plenty of material out there for the curious to read, and it does make for fun "what-if" thinking.Comment
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Thanks for that. I have total respect for frontline troops of any nation like your dad and his buds.Originally posted by Killerbee View PostI concur.. although the bomb probably did open the Japanese government's eyes slightly to what a weapon like that could do. I assume the Japanese government thought that the bomb was just a more efficient and effective weapon to do what had already occurred in many cities in Japan. And if the coup succeeded, Japan would not have surrendered and history would be very different with so many more dead. I think Truman dropped the bomb to show the Russians what we had and would use against our enemies and them if need be. But I'm also sure that Truman believe that Japan surrendered due to the bomb.
My dad in WW2 was a US Marine that fought on Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Guam, Bougainville, and Iwo Jima and many of his Marines buddies had mixed feelings when they heard such a bomb was dropped on a city of women and children. They were told that the bomb ended the war and thus justified its use. They had no reason not to believe that and were happy to have it end the war. But my dad also told me that many Marines were puzzled why we did not drop it on a military location first and not on a city of women and children and why drop them so close together in time. It bothered my dad and many other Marines, but obviously not all. But what is interesting, most Navy and airmen had a total different view... they could careless. My uncle was on the aircraft carrier USS Hornet and he told me that he and his crew members top to bottom hated the Japanese and were very happy such a bomb was used... they could careless if it was on women and children. One of my girl friends dad was on the USS Nevada and he hated the Japanese until the day he died last year. It seems to me that the men (US Marines) that fought face to face with the Japanese had some respect for their adversary, which, doesn't seem to follow with the other service branches as much. I think if you witness the horrors of war up front and personal, and not from a distance, you develop a different point of view and perspective. Especially when it comes to women and children. That is why you see a lot of pilots that can't stop bragging and talking about their combat experiences and loving it... and in contrast, the common foot soldier who would rather forget and never talk about what happened.
Anyway, that is a different discussion in itself... I'm just talking out loud based on my experiences with WW2 vets.
AND I learned a new word today.. "Jingoist"... never heard that term before... where have I been all these years???... lol..
JimComment
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