the forgotten soldier

[F L Clemens]

In case you think I am too tough on Sajer or veterans in general with regard to remembering details - please read this account by a paratrooper leutnant. He lacks lots of details but he writes with great clarity and the details he lacks are appropriate - he doesn't fabricate to fill in the blanks.

www.geocities.com/fschpibtl5/GefechtsberichtArcheon2002.pdf

[peleliuexplorer]

This thread reminds me of those who also believed Hein Severloh mowed down 2,000 American soldiers on Omaha. Ridiculous revisionists....

-Eric

[adlerfan53]

Relax. Sometimes people's heads swell too much when it comes to knowing more than everyone else. IMO the book was really good. It was a great read and I have read it a few times. Authentic or not I do not care. I love this book and read it for entertainment. Freaking out about this book because of the authors validity is like saying the Red Badge of Courage was a horrible book because Crane was not involved in the war. Come on people..just leave it as it is..a good book which really stokes the imagination.

[Hofstetter]

From the Wikipedia

“Despite the recent critique from mostly U.S. military historians, it is still considered to be a genuine autobiography by the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College and has remained on their recommended reading list for World War II.[2] Apart from being recommended in the United States, it is a recommended read for insights in the personal experience of war in many armies around the world.”

Mr Clemens
Maybe you should refer the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College to ebay, and when they can’t find a picture of a white oval barraks they’ll know for sure the story is false, as we all know if it’s not on ebay it can’t be real.

[Hofstetter]

This thread reminds me of those who also believed Hein Severloh mowed down 2,000 American soldiers on Omaha. Ridiculous revisionists....

-Eric

You just stick to 'Saving Private Ryan' Eric

[bigschuss]

This thread reminds me of those who also believed Hein Severloh mowed down 2,000 American soldiers on Omaha. Ridiculous revisionists....

-Eric

Eric, I agree completely about Severloh....

I also agree that we are evaluating FS at 2 different levels of tolerance. It's a classic. It IS a good book. And it IS good entertainment. And it is probably BASED ON real events by a real vet.

That said, I always take it with a grain of salt. Yes, oval barracks, and everything else Mr. Clemens brings up, are a problem. I think it falls on the believers to prove they existed, rather than on the non-believers to prove they didn't.

Twenty years after attending basic training at Fort Benning, GA, I can still picture in my mind their exact lay-out. Ditto for the barracks at Lackland AFB (yes, I attended basic twice), and ditto for the barracks at Langley AFB, VA.

But I still love the book.

[Huntzman]

The roller-coaster ride that has become the stock market is making me queasy, the politicians are lying faster and smoother than my two teen boys, and in general it is a slow news day. So I figured I would join this little fracas / discussion

The thing that has become so interesting to me is the fact that the book is a "good read" seems to have taken the forefront, instead of the veracity of the authors work. Books tend to be categorized as Fiction and Non-Fiction. If we go by the "good read" argument, then we must all stop worrying about the fiscal crisis and prepare for the pending invasion by the evil Galactic Empire led by the nefarious Lord Darth Vader, because that was a Good Read !!!!

For all intents and purposes the facts as established are that Sajer / Mouminoux was born in 1927 and joined the military in 1942 at the age of 16. His book, the Forgotten Soldier, was 1st published in 1967. At the time the book was published he would have been 40 years old. So in essence we are talking about someone I would consider "young" and not subject to "vague memories" of wartime activities. In fact he began to put his memoirs to paper in 1952, while in his mid-twenties. Hardily a candidate for senility.

I say this as someone who served in uniform (law enforcement) for twenty years and age wise would be a contemporary of Mr. Sajer at the age he authored his book. I recall with distinct clarity the commands and officers I served under, the chronological time line of that service, the physical locations I worked, and all the things we would call minutia that we "lived" through.

I believe that Mr. Sajer did serve, but I think when you look at the work as a whole you need to do so with a certain level of detachment. The amount of "small" inconsistencies seems to be contradictory to an autobiographical account. By Mr. Sajer's own acknowledgment minor details such as uniform insignia, weapons nomenclatures and other such things were not important to him. Yet to me, something as "simple" as the misplacement of the GD cuff title sets off alarm bells. To a civilian those medals and insignia are nothing then colorful pieces of metal or material, but to a comrade you can tell in an instant what is correct and more importantly what is incorrect.

If I sat down to recount my career there is no doubt that I could write a story that would be completely verifiable by those who worked under the same conditions as I. The names, dates, places and physical conditions would all stand on their own merits.

US Navy Admiral Hyman Rickover stated “The devil is in the details, and everything we do in the military is a detail.” I believe that it is the details, those small things that cause one to cast a hard eye on a statement, which cause me to question the "complete" truth of the story.

Do I believe Mr. Sajer's account is a good read, yes. Do I believe that everything in it is 100% true, No. In fact Mr. Sajer has already said for the record that to him the "details" were unimportant and that he never had the intention to write a historical reference book; rather he wrote a book about his emotional experiences during the Second World War.

It is clear that Mr. Sajer does not hold the same affinity for the details so many feel establish the bona fides for an "accurate" work. Fair enough, but if Mr. Sajer is stating that these details were not important then this book is probably better off read with a skeptical eye and an understanding that it is an "emotional" work prone to interpretation and not a "historical" one that can be used to accurately pin down another piece of a historical puzzle.

Then again, just my humble $.02

Andrew

[Jean-Loup]

I dont understand why it seems to be such a big deal to know if Sajer was in the GD or not. He should be listed in the archives at the Deutsche Dienststelle, and if there are any doubts, he can ask for copies of his documents himself...

In the french wikipedia, it says his book is an "autobiographical novel", and that although he published it under a fake name (Sajer is his mothers name), it was quickly discovered who the author realy was, and he lost his job because he was viewed as a "nazi".
He apparently spent most of his life making cartoons, so is obviously a story teller with an imagination, surely explaning why his book isnt 100% accurate.

JL

[Ian Lim]

I still think the guy was there in Russia with GD.

He was only a teenager when he served, I can understand he forgot some of the details.

[Garulfo]

Some of his work as a cartoonist. I don't know if they are published in english (maybe Kursk).

[jacquesf]

You guys are missing the obvious. Sajer says it all in the title "the forgotten soldier". He obviously has forgotten some things and makes it quite clear in the title. Jacques.

[Hofstetter]

I still think the guy was there in Russia with GD.

He was only a teenager when he served, I can understand he forgot some of the details.

I think so too Ian

[Ian Lim]

HI Greg and all,
I am saying all this from my own experience.

When I was 18 years old (20 years ago ) , I served in a Recon unit.

We were made to do these long range patrols walking 30km per day for 4 to 5 days on rough terrain.

I can remember how it felt like walking all night under the rain without sleep and in the morning with the sun baking you at 35 degrees.


HOWEVER, I cannot remember for sure the various units, commanders that I supported and work with in those 2 years and would probably get most of them wrong if I attempt to write them down!

So if anyone were to question me in detail the time , place and units, their conclusion would be I was probably not there!

I was only 18 and trying to get enough food and sleep during those years and the things I remember are the personal experiences instead of every important military details.

When I read Sajer, I read it for his personal experiences and I can relate to them. I do not to question the military campaign details provided by only a teenager.

Now things would be different if Sajer or me was in our 20s or older I'm sure we will be abe to get the details better

[F L Clemens]

It is tough to argue Sajer with people who are coming at it from all different directions. For those of you who see his book as good military entertainment, I have no issue. I'm not here to spoil your good time.

For those of you who see Sajer's book as an authentic story of a German soldier, I'm here to say it is filled with garbage that distorts both the true experiences of German soldiers in that period and screws up the bigger picture of the war.

So if anyone wants to discuss why TFS is not good military history, I'm happy to discuss specifics of what is authentic and what isn't.

For those who just want to be entertained - here's a short deleted scene from TFS:

"I pressed my body deeper into the black soil of that godforsaken Ukrainian farm collective. I had long since stopped hearing the crash of the Russian artillery fire and only sensed the vibrations through the earth. My ears were numb and bleeding!
I dared not open my eyes to see whether it was day or night. I began to hallucinate about who I was and how I got here.

In my madness, I saw myself as the old rabbi the platoon had executed outside Kiev after we found him hiding three duck eggs from us. I felt the sweat dripping from my beard onto my bare chest, my shirt hanging in shreds, as I pleaded for mercy from the foreign soldiers. The swastika armbands on their uniforms made them look like members of some diabolical cult from ancient Babylon. The half-German, half-French teenager among them raised his .50 caliber Luger to my face and pulled the trigger. My last thought was, "That meshuggah guy will probably write a silly book about this some day! Oy!"

A strong burning sensation in my groin brought me back to the reality of being Gefreiter Sajer. "Damn that Hure, Paula!" I should have listened to Hals when he told me he saw her hanging around Bahnhof Zoo every Saturday night. If I ever get out of this hell, I'm going to give her what we Ostsoldaten call a "Smolensk Sleighride" - and it isn't going to be pretty. Thinking about that made me smile like I hadn't been able to for weeks.

Later, when the shelling had slacked off, and I was curled up with the latest issue of the GD Times, I felt more forgiving about Paula and the leaky faucet she gave me. I thought to myself, "At least she isn't French, like that Kraut-loving mother of mine!" I laughed and gave the next Hiwi passing by in the trench a good kick in the bolshoi!"

[Huntzman]

.................... I was curled up with the latest issue of the GD Times, I felt more forgiving about Paula and the leaky faucet she gave me. I thought to myself, "At least she isn't French, like that Kraut-loving mother of mine!"[/I]!"[/B]

No, please don't stop........... it reeks of unadulterated authenticity....