the forgotten soldier

[fuser1]

i have to recommned this book, is one of the best, i have red,, was written by guy sajer and is very good,with a very good narrative

[Bernard]

I can only agree. It's the best book I have ever read about the subject.

[Ian Lim]

agree too, one of the best autobiography I have ever read

[leib1]

yes a good book another is hot motors cold feet byhelmut gunther

[JaimeH]

Hi guys, if you notice that a lot is not being said about "The Forgotten Soldier" here, it's because in the past (before the books and media forum existed) it was probably the most previously discussed book.

And you're right, it's one great book, even if it's veracity has been questioned.

[Bernard]

Yes I've read it was questionned but I don't think it's a fake. Few veterans of the W-SS Wallonie told me it was really close to what they lived. I think I can trust them.

[fuser1]

yeah it was questioned, but we know that someone when explain some aspects of areal story, tend to give his own particular point of view, which is not always the real one, but i think this book is very good, y even reading it have to put on a sweater because i could feel the cold,

Yes I've read it was questionned but I don't think it's a fake. Few veterans of the W-SS Wallonie told me it was really close to what they lived. I think I can trust them.

[Dallas]

This is an excellent book, and an great read! I've been through it a couple of times.

[F L Clemens]

Just to set the record straight.
- the author himself has stated it is a novel.
- the events of the book start one year earlier than the author could have entered military service.
- the author has refused to give anything but the most basic info about serving in the German military and he himself has not claimed to have served in Grossdeutschland.

Now if you want to take a novel filled with inaccuracies and fabrications, put it on a pedestal and salute it for being "authentic", be my guest.

On the other hand, if you want to learn about the real Wehrmacht, use the resources of this and other forums and toss Sajer in the trash where it belongs.

[J.von Canon]

Amen

Aaaamen to that!

[Bernard]

I'm sorry but the author told the story was true. Funny how real SS veterans find it really accurated. As a graduated historian I can tell you mistakes in a testimony are normal. It was first written in french. I bet the english traduction is not perfect. That could explain few things.

[Dallas]

Interesting. Please provide your sources.

Here is some info, for the record.

http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/sajer.htm

Just to set the record straight.
- the author himself has stated it is a novel.
- the events of the book start one year earlier than the author could have entered military service.
- the author has refused to give anything but the most basic info about serving in the German military and he himself has not claimed to have served in Grossdeutschland.

Now if you want to take a novel filled with inaccuracies and fabrications, put it on a pedestal and salute it for being "authentic", be my guest.

On the other hand, if you want to learn about the real Wehrmacht, use the resources of this and other forums and toss Sajer in the trash where it belongs.

[F L Clemens]

Here is what I posted previously on the Feldgrau forum (http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewt...r=asc&start=30). Read it and weep for your lost innocence in believing the "authentic" story of Guy Sajer. Basically, everyone (including me) was fooled into thinking this was the real thing because we were young and stupid and TFS was really the only account in English from the German soldier's perspective for many years. Those days are over now, time to grow up and read the real war in factual books like "Blood Red Snow" or "Feuer". Better yet, learn German and read the far greater number of accounts available in the language the Landsers spoke.

"The Forgotten Soldat Who Never Was - Guy Sajer

In the discussion of the authenticity of the Guy Sajer story, let me introduce the following basic facts on the author and the book which are based on the author's own statements, viewable on the internet and pasted in part below:

- The author of the Guy Sajer story is identified as "Dimitri Lahache".

- "Guy Sajer" is a pseudonym, not the name of a Wehrmacht member. Dimitri has also used the pseudonym "Guy Mouminoux"...or perhaps "Dimitri Lahache" is a pseudonym for Guy Mouminoux (the first warning that one cannot take the content of Forgotten Soldier literally is the author's freewheeling invention and use of names.).

- The Forgotten Soldier is a novel - "based" on the author's experiences, however Dimitri has only publicly claimed to have been in the Wehrmacht -which he calls the "German Army"- and on the East Front (unit and locations unspsecified). He has not publicly claimed or given hard evidence that he was a member of the Luftwaffe or GD.

- Dimitri was born on 13 Jan 1927 and joined the RAD at age 16, which would have occurred in Jan 1943 at the earliest. (RAD service was a standard six months tour and thus the earliest he could have transferred into a branch of the Wehrmacht would have been July 1943. The shortest basic training period for him at that point would have been 4 weeks and likely would have been longer - so a transfer to the front could have been Aug 43 but more likely later.)

- The Guy Sajer character started his fictional Wehrmacht service in July 1942, a full year before Dimitri the author could have served in reality. This means the first half of the Sajer timeline and book material, including the Battle of Belgorod in Chapter 6 - with its much discussed 18,000 "Young Lions" and all the main character development, plays out before Dimitri ever was a soldier. It then follows that the first half of TFS can only be fantasy and the point at which TFS could match with Dimitri's service timeline woud be sometime in the Fall 1943 phase. Of course, the concepts of timeline and reality are hard to apply to TFS as Dimitri shoves the Battle of Belgorod from the snowy wintertime of early Feb 43 into the hot summer of 43 and leaves that minor clash known as Kursk out of the picture entirely - most GD vets don't remember Kursk anyway, right?

On a side note - it is a symbol of how far people will go to defend Sajer as true when they take his 1943 18,000 Young Lion Hitler Youth comments and match them up with a GD company formed in 1942 from HJ volunteers. How desperate do you have to be to believe that 18,000 HJ were sent to Belgorod in 1943????????? And that "Sajer" can "remember their arrival very well"?! That must have been one hell of a parade....

some online resources along with translations and notes by Christian below:

Excerpt from Dimitri's Bio (http://www.brusselsbdtour.com/bio_dimitri.htm):
Dimitri est né le 13 janvier 1927 à Paris. Dès l'âge de 3 ans, il se met au dessin. Son enfance est d'ailleurs marquée par la recherche incessante du papier qu'il noircit avec assiduité. Très jeune, il quitte Paris pour l'Alsace, où il passera son enfance et son adolescence. Par la force des choses, à 16 ans, en 1943, il se retrouve enrôlé dans la Wermarcht. Il sera très vite envoyé sur le Front de l'Est, en ex-URSS. De cette expérience traumatisante, il tirera un ouvrage, "Le soldat oublié", publié dans les années 60 sous son nom de plume, "Guy Sajer".

Dimitri was born on January 13th, 1927 in Paris. At three years of age he starts to draw. His youth is characterized by his search for paper that he attentively draws on. He leaves Paris for Alsace at a young age and this is where if is going to spend his youth and adolescence.
By the turn of events, in 1943, at 16 years of age, he finds himself drafted by the Wehrmacht. He is very rapidly sent to the Eastern front, in the ex Soviet Union. From this traumatic experience he will write the book “The Forgotten Soldier”, published in the 60’s under the pen name “Guy Sajer”.

Dimitri's discussion of the Forgotten Soldier (http://www.brusselsbdtour.com/interv..._dimitri.htm):
BrusselsBdTour : Votre roman, "Le soldat oublié", publié chez Robert Laffont sous le pseudonyme de Guy Sajer vous a valu d'être qualifié d' "auteur maudit" de la BD française. Regrettez-vous de l'avoir publié ?

Dimitri : Pas le moins du monde. Si j'ai choisi de publier mon roman sous un pseudonyme était justement pour ne pas tout mélanger. Mais quelques pseudo-journalistes de l'époque se sont empressé de faire le lien entre les deux. Maintenant tout le monde sait que c'est moi, mais à l'époque, j'étais furieux. Je me suis fait virer de "Pilote" à cause de çà et cela me poursuivra jusqu'à ma mort et je ne comprends toujours pas pourquoi. C'est une histoire, la mienne, celle d'un homme forcé de faire des choses qu'il n'avait pas envie de faire. Quand l'Alsace, où je vivais, a été annexée par l'Allemagne, j'avais 16 ans. D'un camp de jeunesse à Strasbourg, je passe à un camp de jeunesse à Kehl, en Allemagne. L'Arbeitsdienst, un groupe militarisé mais non armé n'était pas très glorieux. On rêvait d'être de vrais soldats, en ignorant tout de la guerre. Par un enchaînement naturel, je me retrouve dans la Wehrmacht, l'armée allemande. Qu'auriez-vous voulu que je fasse ? Comme déserteur, on m'aurait fusillé. A part la guerre qui a été une véritable atrocité, j'ai de bons souvenir de cette époque-là. Pendant la guerre, je ne savais pas ce qui se passait. On traînait dans la boue, on ne dormait pas et on avait peur, c'était la terreur. J'ai appris énormément de choses après la guerre, auparavant je n'ai pas eu de problème moral ou éthique puisque je n'avais aucune idée de ce qui se passait. Mais je ne regrette rien, je suis content d'avoir connu çà, même si c'était très dur. J'ai vu les russes se conduire comme des monstres, je suis allé sur le front de l'Est et j'ai vécu les plus grandes peurs de ma vie. Pourtant je suis retourné plusieurs fois en Russie depuis, je ne suis amer envers personne. Mais il est clair que dès la publication du " Soldat Oublié ", j'ai été catalogué " facho ". Si les gens veulent le croire c'est leur problème, il y a bien longtemps que je ne me préoccupe plus de tout çà. " Le Soldat Oublié " a été réédité des dizaine de fois, et a rapporté une fortune à Robert Laffont. Il m'a permis de vivre pendant des années. C'est toujours aujourd'hui un best-seller traduit bon nombre de langues. Je suis en pourparlers avec Paul Verhoeven depuis quelque temps pour la réalisation du long métrage.

BrusselsBdTour: Your novel “The Forgotten Soldier”, published by Robert Laffont under the pseudonym of Guy Sajer, was the main reason why you were described as a “dammed author” by the French cartoon industry. Do you regret that you published the book?

Dimitri: Not at all. If I chose to publish this novel using a pseudonym, it was mainly to avoid mixing things up. However, a few pseudo journalists at the time were eager to make the correlation between the two (*). Now everybody knows that it is me, although at the time I was furious. I was fired by “Pilote” for this reason and this will haunt me to my death as I don’t understand why. It is a story, mine, the story of a man forced to do things that he did not want to do (**). When Alsace, where I lived, was annexed by Germany, I was 16 years old (***). From a youth camp in Strasbourg, I “crossed” to a youth camp in Kehl, in Germany. The Arbeitsdienst, a non-armed, militarized group was not very glorious. We were dreaming of being real soldiers, yet we ignored everything of war. By a “natural sequence” I find myself in the Wehrmacht, the German Army. What would you have wanted me to do? As a deserter I would have been shot. Apart from the war which was a real ordeal, I have good memories of that time. During the war, I did not know what was going on. We were struggling through the mud, we would not be able to sleep and we were afraid; it was terror. I learned a tremendous amount after the war; before I had no moral or ethical issues as I did not know what was going on. However, I do not have any regrets, I am happy to have had this experience even if it was hard. I saw the Russians handle themselves like monsters; I went to the Russian front and had the biggest fears of my life. Even though I have gone back to Russia on several occasions, I am not bitter toward anybody. However, it is clear that as soon as the “Forgotten Soldier” was published, I was labeled as a fascist. If people want to believe this it is their problem; it has been a long time since I have worried about such things. “The Forgotten Soldier” was published in several editions and made a fortune for Robert Laffont. It has been my main source of income for years. It is still to this date a best seller, translated in numerous languages. I am in discussions with Paul Verhoeven for some time now about the possibility to make it into a movie.

Comments:
(*) He is referring to his profession as a cartoonist and his book.
(**) This statement again would indicate that he was drafted by the German Army against his will - "malgré-nous.
(***) Alsace was annexed in August 1940 – Mouminoux was 13 at the time. I sure it is his counting ability that must be failing here."

[F L Clemens]

Here is some info, for the record.
http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/sajer.htm

Dallas, Doug Nash, who I am on friendly terms with, has done a lot over the years to try to confirm Sajer's story as real. It just hasn't panned out, due mainly to the author's refusal to cooperate with him. Much of the information which Doug has presented as evidence in favor of Sajer is speculative and very circumstantial, they do not hold much weight in light of the errors and fabrications in the Sajer book. Thus the info on the website you point to is not compelling, it was part of an earlier debate which has now been superceded by the TFS author's own admissions as seen in my preceding post.

The author has said TFS is a novel and some people might cling to it even in that form. However I would still strongly urge people to avoid it even as an historical novel, since the inaccuracies give one a distorted, Hollywood image of the Wehrmacht. For example, the book opens with Sajer joining the Luftwaffe to fly Stukas. There is not a single piece of information in that opening scene which matches with reality besides the obvious facts that the Luftwaffe had Stukas and Rudel was a Stuka pilot. Everything else about the unit, location, timing, training program, etc is pure fabrication and simply designed to set the stage for the fictional main character for an audience who is completely ignorant of the Wehrmacht.

[Bernard]

May I ask you if you are an historian Mr Clemens ? One of the first rules in history is to not believe 100% a testimony as there will be mistakes. I don't see why I shouldn't trust that book when former members from the SS Wallonie told me it was really good. They even told me that it was really close to their experience.