Craig Gottlieb & "Nazi War Diggers"

[Simon H]

I don't know the individual presenters of this embarassing series, at best they have been extremely naive taking part in such an activity, without apparent visible guidance from archaeologists, ordnance recovery teams etc.

At worst has already been voiced on this thread. I hope this never gets broadcast.

[Fred Green]

As regards the 2nd point, that was not true and plenty of the members there complained about this appalling mess.

Any who saw it before it was deleted will know that some of us complained in the first instance about the title and the use of CG as a presenter and then when the video clip was released slightly later, another raft of posts were made complaining about the completely unacceptable methodology used to excavate the human remains. The later released stills of them all trying to look like big game hunters with the spoils of the hunt was in incredibly bad taste.

As regards the first point, I have already stated that I will probably be leaving there over this and I might well be banned for contributing here.

Hello Jerry,

Thanks for your input! I was over at WRF looking to see if there had been and discussion started and could not find any.

I believe that we are all appalled at this show and what they are doing with the human remains. I am livid. What makes it worse is that Craig Gottlieb is involved. A douchbag in his own right for publicly trying to sell fakes, lieing about provenance, and general despicable behavior but stooping this low was unbelieveable to me. Since his past behavior is known to us we focus on him and not the real problem of the show. It was rightfully so that he was expelled from this community IMO.

There is a great uproar from the Archeological community and the collectors community but this is nothing unless something is done. In my personal opinion the show needs to be stopped! Contact Nat Geo and tell them that you are in no way happy with this program and that you do not want to see it aired. Craig Gottlieb also needs to be banished from the collecting community. This type of individual does no favor to the collecting community and is truly in it for nothing else but personal exposure and private gain.

It is sad to say time after time that this individual pops up on the radar with high end crap and a basketful of lies to accompany it. I was actually surprised to see this individual at the SOS on the back row with veterans. The shame is on us for letting this continue. It is time for the powers that be to step up and do the right thing. IMHO.

Fred

[Bond]

Typical excavation techniques as used by the "official" team that were advising the Nat Geo team.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utzr...PxggZVIch394Cg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sLZ...PxggZVIch394Cg

The raising of these issues and awareness can hopefully bring some good out of this sorry and and extremely ill thought program.

[alexanderautogr]

Typical excavation techniques as used by the "official" team that were advising the Nat Geo team.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utzr...PxggZVIch394Cg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sLZ...PxggZVIch394Cg

The raising of these issues and awareness can hopefully bring some good out of this sorry and and extremely ill thought program.

I pray to God that someone, somewhere is monitoring these (grave) diggers. It's VERY obvious that their main concern is the relics they pull out of the ground - the sanctity of human remains runs a far second.

I especially liked the scene where the "expert" yanks the Russian helmet and skull out of the ground, dumping the bones into the dirt in order to examine the insignia on the helmet. I almost threw up.

A great Nat Geo show would cover the self-righteous ghouls tearing up these sites for fun (and profit?).

[Dietrich Maerz]

Whoever thinks this is a vendetta by some "Gottlieb haters" has not grasp the whole impact of the issue. There is a huge difference whether some disgruntled collectors complain for two weeks and with 300 posts about a dealer in a dedicated collector forum which is unknowm to 99.999999% of the worldwide population or whether all over sudden there is a story which is run by every national and international newspaper worldwide connecting our hobby with "Nazi War Diggers".

The connection between what is viewed by nearly everybody on the face of the earth as commercial grave digging for the sake of morbid entertainment and a militaria dealer, who describes himself in that context as "I feel that by selling things that are Nazi related and for lots of money, I’m preserving a part of history that museums don’t want to bother with” is not good.
The public is not thinking of a Knight Cross or another War Badge when they read his statement - the connection will be that he digs in Latvia and sells In California, just as he admitted in this very forum that he brought items back from the digging sites.

This will hurt our hobby for a long time! The connection between collecting militaria and grave digging and historical site plundering has been made and if anyone is called in the future as a member of grave diggers you know who to thank for this!

That is the issue here! read this very informative article in the Heritage Daily: http://www.heritagedaily.com/2014/03...diggers/102632

A very sorry and completely unneccessary affair!

Dietrich

[DonC]

Somebody on this thread said "digging up war dead is not a crime". Sorry to disagree, but it most certainly is a crime in most western countries...

Don

[Chris Boonzaier]

nearly everybody on the face of the earth as commercial grave digging for the sake of morbid entertainment and a militaria dealer, who describes himself in that context as "I feel that by selling things that are Nazi related and for lots of money, I’m preserving a part of history that museums don’t want to bother with” is not good.
The public is not thinking of a Knight Cross or another War Badge when they read his statement - the connection will be that he digs in Latvia and sells In California, just as he admitted in this very forum that he brought items back from the digging sites.

This will hurt our hobby for a long time! The connection between collecting

Dietrich

Indeed.

I have spent a lot of time tramping battlefields, I have a couple of shelves of "finds"... the Credo I have had has always been "Dont dig, and never sell"....

For me finding something on a battlefield is about as close to a Religious experiance this old athiest can have. Visiting a Trench line in an overgrown forest where one of the guys whose medals you have won his award for a hand grenade attack, and finding part of a Grenade to display with his medals... visiting a bend in the road where one of your guys was hit with a bullet in the knee... and finding a bullet in the gravel on the road...

Those are experiances I wish every collector could share...

To "Go Digging"... and turn that into cash by selling what you find... is totally missing what this is all about.

Its like selling young virgins into prostitution slavery and saying "Wheres the Problem? They will have cleaner sheets than if they married a Peasant in the village!!"

[kefru177]

Typical excavation techniques as used by the "official" team that were advising the Nat Geo team.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utzr...PxggZVIch394Cg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sLZ...PxggZVIch394Cg

The raising of these issues and awareness can hopefully bring some good out of this sorry and and extremely ill thought program.

3.11 on the second video makes me want to be sick. Hope that helmet is worth it

[kefru177]

"the Latvian War Museum did not approve of the Nazi War Diggers"

National Geographics story is coming apart rapidly as it seems that the Lativan Museum DID NOT give permission to film and assist, rather it tried to stop them

http://conflictantiquities.wordpress...m-contact-lie/

Lies and lies by NG

[Bond]

3.11 on the second video makes me want to be sick. Hope that helmet is worth it

As I posted, raising awareness of these practices could be the only good thing to come out of this, that and CG getting his named finally smeared beyond all retrieval, though for me that is secondary.

I wonder now if the makers will try and turn it into some sort of expose/sting show on these activities and try to make out that that was their intention all along.

[PAB]

If NG ever do go mainstream and show it, then then the first ten minutes will be made up of disclaimers.

[Mil-Archive]

"the Latvian War Museum did not approve of the Nazi War Diggers"

National Geographics story is coming apart rapidly as it seems that the Lativan Museum DID NOT give permission to film and assist, rather it tried to stop them

http://conflictantiquities.wordpress...m-contact-lie/

Lies and lies by NG

So far that is 3 of the most important points from the National Geographic rebuttal press release that do not add up.

First Volksbund who did not approve, 2nd the Latvian Museum did not approve and thirdly the smuggling and selling of removed items.

[J. Wraith]

the Latvian War Museum did not approve of the Nazi War Diggers
by Sam Hardy

On the 28th(?) of March 2014, National Geographic changed their information concerning Nazi War Diggers and claimed that, ‘during filming, our production crew remained in close contact with local museums, including the Latvian War Museum‘. The understandably outraged Latvian War Museum has stated that it did not approve of Nazi War Diggers, it does not approve of Nazi War Diggers and, in fact, it tried to stop Nazi War Diggers.

When I saw National Geographic’s claim (on the 29th), in disbelief, I queried, [Do] the Brotherhood Cemetery Committee and the Latvian War Museum Approve of this Work?

Latvian War museum are not approving such activities. We tried to stop Diggers activities [by] drawing state institutions['] attention, but unsuccessfully. Problem about Diggers are much complicated and should be solved [at] state (law) level. We as museum cannot do that. Only what we can do is [appeal] to these people['s] conscience.

Maybe you should send this article to State Inspection for Heritage Protection?

http://www.km.gov.lv/en/ministry/con...h_unit=244#244

[Not all of the name-based e-mail addresses have the same format (and the ones in a different format don't work). If you make ones in the same format, they will work.]

Who is lying to whom?

1. How do the Nazi War Diggers, ClearStory, National Geographic Channels International and/or the Fox Entertainment Group define ‘close contact’?

2. Can the Nazi War Diggers, ClearStory, National Geographic Channels International and/or the Fox Entertainment Group provide any evidence whatsoever of the Latvian War Museum’s approval?

3. Did the Nazi War Diggers, ClearStory, National Geographic Channels International and/or the Fox Entertainment Group describe the relationship as ‘close contact’ because it did not communicate the nature or result of the relationship?

4. By ‘close contact’ between Nazi War Diggers and the Latvian War Museum, did the Nazi War Diggers, ClearStory, National Geographic Channels International and/or the Fox Entertainment Group mean that the Latvian War Museum felt obliged, out of professional and humanitarian concern, to accept the responsibility of curating the cultural property that had been unprofessionally and unethically dug up by Nazi War Diggers against the museum’s wishes?

5. Who established the narrative of ‘close contact’ between Nazi War Diggers and the Latvian War Museum?

6. How was belief in this ‘close contact’ maintained despite the Latvian War Museum’s express disapproval and its efforts to actively prevent Nazi War Diggers?

7. Was/were the person/people who was/were responsible for the ‘close contact’ with the Latvian War Museum also responsible for Nazi War Diggers’ other partnerships, approvals and connections? (Concomitantly, are the Nazi War Diggers’ other partners, supporters and contacts genuinely partners, supporters and contacts?)

8. Similarly, Nazi War Diggers worked with a group that (sometimes) worked with the German War Graves Commission (Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge (VDK)), but the Diggers did not work with the Volksbund itself and, otherwise, the Volksbund ‘had nothing to do with it and do not want to be associated with it’. Did the Nazi War Diggers, ClearStory, National Geographic Channels International and/or the Fox Entertainment Group have any contact with any state institutions or professional archaeological organisations in any of the countries where they worked, or did they work directly and solely with local metal-detecting groups? (Concomitantly, who established and maintained those working relationships?)

[Historyisme]

What they are doing is so, so disgusting.

I feel the only reason why they are doing whst they are doing is for television. If someone offered them the chance to professionally find soldiers human remains for proper reberial without all the tv cameras and no personal gain would they do it? I know Craig Gottlieb would most probably not.

I am all for finding soldiers remains and giving them a proper burial in a marked grave but the way they are going about it is just disturbing and really saddening to watch. These soldiers made the ultimate sacrifice and deserve a lot more respect than what these baboons are doing to their remains.

Just my opinion but when one of the diggers said it was an arm bone, I feel he said that because it was next to a skull so he assumed straight off it was an arm bone without seeing it first, and then Craig pressed it against his own body parts to explain it is a leg bone. Craig shouldn't have done that,

[oberst40]

Just to show how to do it on a respectfull way

Maybe the NGC guys can follow a course overhere:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L1m72XSc2c

Cheers!