Dr. Mengele Passport Found

[tanker]

I agree and lets not leave out the Totenkopfring fiascos he has been involved in. Ron

Don't get too upset, Craig uses this tactic regularly. Go back and reread the threads of controversy found here on WAF.

The Birdshead Dagger was "restored", but he would not name the alleged restorer. The picture frame incident was necessitated by an autographed AH photo that has still (years later) never come to light. Some vet recorded his story of a rare piece, but, you guessed it, he "dies" and can't be contacted. Any story involving a super rare piece and Craig always reaches some curious dead-end. This is all calculated and a big part of his modus operandi. The thread will get locked down, or the story debunked or ignored by Craig until it is irrelevant. Then, if you ever try to ask about it later, there is a tone of "can't you give it a rest? I don't have to talk about it anymore. I have said my piece. I don't have to answer to you." Remember and look for curious dead-ends.

I am not attacking Craigs character, I don't know him personally. However, as a regular of WAF I can't help but notice how many different threads there are that involve some sort of controversy and Craig Gottlieb's "expertise". I don't think it is productive to turn threads into attacks. But it is irresponsible to ignore obvious trends involving the same people.

If the membership here chooses to fall for it, I have no control. I just know that I don't fall for it.

[Marcel Banziger]

Only just found out about this thread now. Unbelievable to see that the media was searched in such a way before even being sure of the authenticity of the item. Now that turned out the item in fact is a fake it makes you look like a fool after starting with strong statements like “People asked me how I know when something’s real, and I have a hard time explaining it. I just know. People forge documents all the time, but over the years I’ve learned how to look at the paper, the inks, the printing styles ... This was a self-authenticating artifact.” Simply unbelievable.

[Hoss]

Hoss,

The newspaper article is a little confusing.

At the MAX Show last October, Craig showed me the "passport" for about thirty seconds total. As I recall, I told him it was a great object, and I'd love to have it for our auction. That was the first and last time I saw the document first hand. Of course, my comment to Craig was by no means a validation of the piece, nor were the comments made to the newspaper which were based on that brief viewing. My "Still historically it's a great piece" comment was taken out of context - it was made under the assumption that the piece was in all respects authentic.

If, as I believe, the document is a new-born forgery, it's worth $100 as a curiosity - much like the Donitz document on my wall which a "third party authenticator" verified as bearing the signature of...Chester Nimitz.

Thank you Bill
I think you'd agree it reads bad.

Eric

[Hoss]

Only just found out about this thread now. Unbelievable to see that the media was searched in such a way before even being sure of the authenticity of the item. Now that turned out the item in fact is a fake it makes you look like a fool after starting with strong statements like “People asked me how I know when something’s real, and I have a hard time explaining it. I just know. People forge documents all the time, but over the years I’ve learned how to look at the paper, the inks, the printing styles ... This was a self-authenticating artifact.” Simply unbelievable.

For us general history lovers with a passing interest on these artifacts I wonder if the people using time were even aware the surname was 'Gregor' not Helmut whatever, an Italian friend asked me to point this out after reading about it something else the press release screwed up.
He's also a bit shocked an individual with no family link could contact Italian authorities and obtain information even on a cancelled passport, is this normal?

Eric

[Serge M.]

Contrary to what Mr. Gottlieb said earlier in this thread, I did not confirm it as authentic - I claimed it remained troubling and needed further study. He responded that it would take a "month" or a "year" to determine if it was authentic. I would like to know where that school book is now.

I assume his "team of experts" is still at work on it today, two years later.

Bill,
Before a donation worth more than $5,000 is accepted for tax write off by the IRS, they will need a IRS accepted expert appraisal and CoA. (From my experience a number of years ago).
Did Craig suggest you help him out in that matter if indeed he was going to donate a $250,000 Mengele Grouping to the Holocaust Museum ?

>>Through his Solana Beach auction company historyhunter.com, Gottlieb trades internationally in military artifacts — particularly German items from World War II — but he said the Mengele passport is not for sale. The 42-year-old North County resident has Jewish heritage and said he would prefer to donate the document to an institution like the Museum of Tolerance or the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, if he can cover his expenses. <<

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/...gele-passport/

-wagner-

[RichieC]

Has Hitler's pass port been found yet?

I suspect it will be soon enough...

[Killerbee]

Many have asked whether there is a pattern of conduct by CG, well that is a valid question IMO and I think most already know the answer. No one wants to critique the holder of an historical item.. because it may seem personal but when the holder makes it personal by his actions, then IMO a critique is warranted. I'm sure CG is a nice person and clearly ambitious. Nothing wrong with that and I guess the efforts of self promotion has worked to a degree for himself. But unfortunately, his personal agenda is skewing the general ethos on why many of us collect. CG interest in collecting is in conflict with ours... again, there is nothing wrong with that but when his efforts promotes or further the efforts of say forgers, then it does become a big concern and valid to discuss motivations and the person in question, as Mr. Alexander (Bill) has already posted. And because of that, some of statements that seem to be personal should be considered in this discussion IMO. Motivation by the holder of the historical item may clear up some of our frustrations for said actions.

IMO CG’s behavior is quite obvious. His resistance to the obvious facts here is clearly because it just doesn’t fit “HIS” scripted agenda to use historical item(s) to boost his public image and efforts to peddle a TV show (History Hunter). Historical items are just a prop for his image… nothing more. Take away the prop and what do you find? CG IMO has presented and promoted himself "equally" to the historical artifact in question. CG personal promotion wants you to think of him when you think of any historical artifact he is holding. His promotional photos attest to that fact. And because of this self promotion, it can be difficult to not make a critique of the historical artifact without critiquing the presenter at the same time. If this continues over and over again, then IMO a critique of the presenter does become relevant, as if the forger himself was the presenter. And furthermore, some of CG efforts may result in collateral damage to "real" experts in the field... like Bill's.
</O
You can also see his promotional efforts by the words he uses in his scripts… words like… “I, he, uncovered”, “I, he discovered”… etc. Those words make it sound like he was actually searching for a particular artifact and through "exhaustive" efforts discovered or uncovered the history of said historical artifact… but the truth is that someone handed it to him at a “SHOW” and told him what it was and he fell for it. When someone hands you an item and tell you what it is at a show that does not fit those words of “uncovered” or “discovered.

I further surmise that the filming of a dig in Russia or wherever, and now this passport fiasco is just meant to be possible episode (1 & 2) of his script for his proposed reality TV show. I also surmise that the script for the Mengele’s passport in now being rewritten… now it goes like this, “Indiana Jones = CG” UNCOVERS OR DISCOVERS this Mengele passport, then CG boasts about his ability to "discover" historical artifacts and then hands the passport over to some so called “experts” to analyze… but in the meantime the camera is directed to CG and then the talk turns to Mengele for the next 45 min.... misdirecting the subject matter to the bad man… and at the end of the episode the announcing punch line is: this Mengele passport is a bad forgery. No skin off CG back... off the hook. So in the end, CG look like a Indiana Jones… seeking history… the episode will not be about this passport fiasco but about remembering the horrors of Mengele. I can see it being written this way and ending that way. AND this will not be the last time we will hear about such findings as CG does need more episodes… so expect more to come.

And one more thing, some people write books for passion about a subject, and then there are others that write a book just to create a perception of being an expert. I see this in my profession all the time. Pretty obvious.

So I find this subject matter to be unpleasant and entirety sad, and disturbing. Personal image promotional efforts like this will create more similar episodes I'm afraid. No one here really likes to go beyond critiquing an historical item and then end up critiquing the presenter of the historical item. If I was decision maker on Pawn Stars, I would drop CG in a heart beat. This is quite a negative for Pawn Stars and CG's efforts to piggy back that brand on his website is a just further negativity to that brand which they have worked so very hard to craft and is worth millions. I'm not sure how they could tolerate it.

But I could be wrong on all of this... but that is what I see. Change your professional image CG otherwise you will crash & burn. Remember individuals like yourself are a dime a dozen in the eyes of Hollywood. Easily replaced.

Jim

[kiwitedferny]

Many have asked whether there is a pattern of conduct by CG, well that is a valid question IMO and I think most already know the answer. No one wants to critique the holder of an historical item.. because it may seem personal but when the holder makes it personal by his actions, then IMO a critique is warranted. I'm sure CG is a nice person and clearly ambitious. Nothing wrong with that and I guess the efforts of self promotion has worked to a degree for himself. But unfortunately, his personal agenda is skewing the general ethos on why many of us collect. CG interest in collecting is in conflict with ours... again, there is nothing wrong with that but when his efforts promotes or further the efforts of say forgers, then it does become a big concern and valid to discuss motivations and the person in question, as Mr. Alexander (Bill) has already posted. And because of that, some of statements that seem to be personal should be considered in this discussion IMO. Motivation by the holder of the historical item may clear up some of our frustrations for said actions.

IMO CG’s behavior is quite obvious. His resistance to the obvious facts here is clearly because it just doesn’t fit “HIS” scripted agenda to use historical item(s) to boost his public image and efforts to peddle a TV show (History Hunter). Historical items are just a prop for his image… nothing more. Take away the prop and what do you find? CG IMO has presented and promoted himself "equally" to the historical artifact in question. CG personal promotion wants you to think of him when you think of any historical artifact he is holding. His promotional photos attest to that fact. And because of this self promotion, it can be difficult to not make a critique of the historical artifact without critiquing the presenter at the same time. If this continues over and over again, then IMO a critique of the presenter does become relevant, as if the forger himself was the presenter. And furthermore, some of CG efforts may result in collateral damage to "real" experts in the field... like Bill's.
</O
You can also see his promotional efforts by the words he uses in his scripts… words like… “I, he, uncovered”, “I, he discovered”… etc. Those words make it sound like he was actually searching for a particular artifact and through "exhaustive" efforts discovered or uncovered the history of said historical artifact… but the truth is that someone handed it to him at a “SHOW” and told him what it was and he fell for it. When someone hands you an item and tell you what it is at a show that does not fit those words of “uncovered” or “discovered.

I further surmise that the filming of a dig in Russia or wherever, and now this passport fiasco is just meant to be possible episode (1 & 2) of his script for his proposed reality TV show. I also surmise that the script for the Mengele’s passport in now being rewritten… now it goes like this, “Indiana Jones = CG” UNCOVERS OR DISCOVERS this Mengele passport, then CG boasts about his ability to "discover" historical artifacts and then hands the passport over to some so called “experts” to analyze… but in the meantime the camera is directed to CG and then the talk turns to Mengele for the next 45 min.... misdirecting the subject matter to the bad man… and at the end of the episode the announcing punch line is: this Mengele passport is a bad forgery. No skin off CG back... off the hook. So in the end, CG look like a Indiana Jones… seeking history… the episode will not be about this passport fiasco but about remembering the horrors of Mengele. I can see it being written this way and ending that way. AND this will not be the last time we will hear about such findings as CG does need more episodes… so expect more to come.

And one more thing, some people write books for passion about a subject, and then there are others that write a book just to create a perception of being an expert. I see this in my profession all the time. Pretty obvious.

So I find this subject matter to be unpleasant and entirety sad, and disturbing. Personal image promotional efforts like this will create more similar episodes I'm afraid. No one here really likes to go beyond critiquing an historical item and then end up critiquing the presenter of the historical item. If I was decision maker on Pawn Stars, I would drop CG in a heart beat. This is quite a negative for Pawn Stars and CG's efforts to piggy back that brand on his website is a just further negativity to that brand which they have worked so very hard to craft and is worth millions. I'm not sure how they could tolerate it.

But I could be wrong on all of this... but that is what I see. Change your professional image CG otherwise you will crash & burn. Remember individuals like yourself are a dime a dozen in the eyes of Hollywood. Easily replaced.

Jim

Bloody good post!

"A vaulting ambition which o'er leaps itself and falls on the other side.." Macbeth.
Shakespeare always has an issue nailed..

[Hoss]

Jeez well said Jim
Threads like these want me to give up altogether '09 I came to chat with history collectors and hope make friends not this.

Regards

[ethreecee]

Master forger

Do any of you remember Mark Hoffman of Salt Lake City? He also discover many priceless documents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Hofmann

[Ozarkian]

Threads like these are why people are put off by TR collecting. Not only do you have to worry about someone selling a fake item. You also have to deal with the cut throat nature of this collecting field. I think to much skin is in the game for collecting TR items to be enjoyable any more. I am not talking about Craig in specific. I have never done business with him so I can not comment. I am talking about the collecting field in general. Thanks, Eric

[Mil-Archive]

Just read the entire thread from start to end and it's appalling. It's like watching a big train wreck in slow motion. Cringeful 'embarrasing to watch' kind of stuff.

Got to say Alexanders Autographs have handled themselves very well throughout this thread. I hate to think where this thread would be without their input. I strongly agree with the recommendation to move lifetime membership from CG to AA.

I think the wiki page sabotage still needs to be answered for as well.

[bodes]

Threads like these are why people are put off by TR collecting. Not only do you have to worry about someone selling a fake item. You also have to deal with the cut throat nature of this collecting field. I think to much skin is in the game for collecting TR items to be enjoyable any more. I am not talking about Craig in specific. I have never done business with him so I can not comment. I am talking about the collecting field in general. Thanks, Eric

Old News.....TR collecting changed dramatically when the "hobby" went from being a blue collar to white collar man's game.....Bodes

[11C]

There is an obvious fake in here and it's the fake TR "expert" Craig Gottlieb. How stupid does he think we are? Next he'll claim he works for the CIA but is in reality a double agent for Israel.

[Wagriff]

Just a Brief Observation



Has anyone noticed that the photo used in Mengele's passport looks like a much older man than he should have been in 1948? The 1st photo here is from the Auschwitz Album which was taken just a very few years before the passport photo was taken and shows a radically different image. He arrived in May 23rd of 1943 to Auschwitz and fled on January 17, 1945, so the above image can be narrowed to that short time line. The passport is said to be issued in Genoa,Italy in 1949. For someone so vain as Mengele, his physical appearance has changed dramatically in the space of a few short years. Mengele was born March 16, 1911, which would make him 37 years old in 1948, but the man in the passport photo appears to be considerably older than 37. In fact, the photo more closely resembles the image in his 1956 Argentine Identification document(the 3rd photo) It may well be the same actual photo as the passport photo.