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    #136
    Originally posted by Craig Gottlieb View Post
    Bill: I will be willing to share EVERYTHING upon completion of my investigation, good or bad, but in my own time. This is not life or death for anyone and need not be "solved" in the next 24 hours, as Dietrich essentially pointed out. .
    Once again, at the risk of seeming personal... as we sit here Google, Yahoo and Bing are all saving newspaper articles and Wiki entries about the guy who found Mengeles Passport.

    I would wager, the finding of Mengeles passport is a much bigger news story than Militaria dealers screwing each other.

    So for however long it takes to have this researched, thousands of people can read about the passport... then in 4 (6? 7? 8?) months there is a little Blurb somewhere, the online version of 3 lines on page 5.... "Those crazy collectors are at it again: Mengle Passport a fake!"...

    And it will pass totally unnoticed.

    Sorry if you take that personally... I just see it as the logical progression if you sit on this....

    Comment

      #137
      Originally posted by Chris Boonzaier View Post
      Once again, at the risk of seeming personal... as we sit here Google, Yahoo and Bing are all saving newspaper articles and Wiki entries about the guy who found Mengeles Passport.
      I would wager, the finding of Mengeles passport is a much bigger news story than Militaria dealers screwing each other.
      So for however long it takes to have this researched, thousands of people can read about the passport... then in 4 (6? 7? 8?) months there is a little Blurb somewhere, the online version of 3 lines on page 5.... "Those crazy collectors are at it again: Mengle Passport a fake!"...
      And it will pass totally unnoticed.
      Sorry if you take that personally... I just see it as the logical progression if you sit on this....
      That is exactly what I meant. Right now this most likely fake is spreading through the intrenet like a wild fire tied to the name of Craig Gottlieb. The longer it stays and the more it is attached to the name, the more false publicity it gets. I cannot imagin that Craig wants to be in the same category as Gerd Heidemann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Diaries) and we will see a wikipedia entry "Mengeles Passport". We know already from earlier experience that the newspapers will never retract what they once reported.

      I am still baffled by this:

      I open all investigations of the passport. It's already been looked at by other experts, but whether you like it or not, I know my stuff with respect to documents, and given the provenance that comes with it, I know it's real. Anyway ... the photo on the passport was taken in Genoa or somewhere in Europe. The photos taken a little while later, which appear on the police documents, were taken in Argentina.
      Who are theses experts? Will they stand up to their blatently false report to Craig?

      Dietrich
      B&D PUBLISHING
      Premium Books from Collectors for Collectors

      Comment

        #138
        Whether the piece is finally being called authentic or not...who cares??

        This is about publicity - nothing more and nothing less.

        And that is what no dealer or collector can buy really.

        If you gain it, if you receive worldwide attention...there is nothing better.

        In fact it is priceless.

        Comment

          #139
          Originally posted by Thorsten B. View Post
          Whether the piece is finally being called authentic or not...who cares??

          This is about publicity - nothing more and nothing less.

          And that is what no dealer or collector can buy really.

          If you gain it, if you receive worldwide attention...there is nothing better.

          In fact it is priceless.


          ....But there is a difference between famous and infamous.

          Comment

            #140
            It's a case of "little man" syndrome in conjunction with the ever popular culture of victimization than became apparent within the last one or two decades.

            Chet
            Zinc stinks!

            Comment

              #141
              Originally posted by Chet Sowersby View Post
              It's a case of "little man" syndrome in conjunction with the ever popular culture of victimization than became apparent within the last one or two decades.

              Chet

              mengele was (according to google) 1.74... with was not small for that era...

              Old Hitler... now that was little man syndrome.

              Comment

                #142
                Craig,


                There's been some intimation of age determination and deduction; so, may I suggest you enquire along the lines of a ''paper forensic'' consultant. There are one or two reputable private companies in the United States that would cator for your needs.

                I can assure you from experience that the process of ''elimination'' - as in the results are compared to a database - are perhaps as close as you will get concerning a modern paper/photograph to an estimated period.

                It is all rather clever and certainly possible to deduce such as the wood fibre type, the pulping process properties, treatments to the paper, etc.


                Kind regards,

                Marcus

                Comment

                  #143
                  Originally posted by Chet Sowersby View Post
                  It's a case of "little man" syndrome in conjunction with the ever popular culture of victimization than became apparent within the last one or two decades.

                  Chet
                  Are you talking about Gottlieb?

                  Chris

                  Comment

                    #144
                    Originally posted by Marcus Hatton View Post
                    Craig,


                    There's been some intimation of age determination and deduction; so, may I suggest you enquire along the lines of a ''paper forensic'' consultant. There are one or two reputable private companies in the United States that would cator for your needs.

                    I can assure you from experience that the process of ''elimination'' - as in the results are compared to a database - are perhaps as close as you will get concerning a modern paper/photograph to an estimated period.

                    It is all rather clever and certainly possible to deduce such as the wood fibre type, the pulping process properties, treatments to the paper, etc.


                    Kind regards,

                    Marcus
                    Hi Marcus
                    If this fell in my lap in England I'd be straight to the Imperial War Museum they have or know of people I'm sure. 'If' authentic I'd give them it.

                    Eric

                    Comment

                      #145
                      Another thing which jump to my eyes is the presence of stamps only related to the "Comune di Genova", usually it would have been done by "Commissariato" or "Questura" juridical personalities preposed to release a passport.

                      It would be quite interesting to check and see if there are any other stamps on it on the other pages.

                      Of great help would be also to post a clear scan of the signature of the Mayor , I mean the one under the stamp "IL SINDACO"
                      Thanks,
                      Last edited by Tora_Tora_Tora!; 01-30-2014, 01:56 AM.

                      Comment

                        #146
                        Originally posted by Tora_Tora_Tora! View Post
                        Another thing which jump to my eyes is the presence of stamps only related to the "Comune di Genova", usually it would have been done by "Commissariato" or "Questura" juridical personalities preposed to release a passport.

                        It would be quite interesting to check and see if there are any other stamps on it on the other pages.

                        Of great help would be also to post a clear scan of the signature of the Mayor , I mean the one under the stamp "IL SINDACO"
                        Thanks,

                        Hi,

                        It is possible that all stamps and signatures are 100% Ok... just the Photo is exchanged.

                        For me that would have been the logical thing for a Mengele to have done as it used to be the most comman way a couple of decades ago (and still is in more ophisticated ways)... Get as stolen passport and 95% of the work is already done... just exchange the photo... (Nowdays you have to exchange the whole data page)...

                        If it was a Mengele Passport, that would probably have been the best way and would have explained quite a bit.... it would NOT have proved WHEN the photo exchange had taken place (50 weeks or 50 years ago)...

                        HOWEVER, the "cancelled" stamp makes that a moot point.... There would have been no reason for him to cancel a fake passport... there would have been no reason to stick his pic in and use a cancelled passport.... but a faker could have simply stuck a pic in a cancelled passport...

                        I dont think Alexanders Critique kills the passport of right away... there could still be other explanations, but for me the cancelled stamp was and stays the stumbling block.

                        Comment

                          #147
                          Originally posted by Chris Boonzaier View Post
                          Hi,

                          It is possible that all stamps and signatures are 100% Ok... just the Photo is exchanged.

                          For me that would have been the logical thing for a Mengele to have done as it used to be the most comman way a couple of decades ago (and still is in more ophisticated ways)... Get as stolen passport and 95% of the work is already done... just exchange the photo... (Nowdays you have to exchange the whole data page)...

                          If it was a Mengele Passport, that would probably have been the best way and would have explained quite a bit.... it would NOT have proved WHEN the photo exchange had taken place (50 weeks or 50 years ago)...

                          HOWEVER, the "cancelled" stamp makes that a moot point.... There would have been no reason for him to cancel a fake passport... there would have been no reason to stick his pic in and use a cancelled passport.... but a faker could have simply stuck a pic in a cancelled passport...

                          I dont think Alexanders Critique kills the passport of right away... there could still be other explanations, but for me the cancelled stamp was and stays the stumbling block.
                          Yes Chris, probably the stamps are originals, no doubts but what makes me suspicious is to see them into a passport due , normally, the release stamps were issued by a "Commissariato" or "Questura" .
                          At first sight there are too many stamps on it.....
                          Regarding the signature of course it would be original but knowing the name of the mayor would help us to understand if in that period he was chief in Genova.....

                          Comment

                            #148
                            Jeeeez....what a bitchy thread. I think it's a very interesting find; it will, no doubt be scrutinized very closely by many experts (real and self appointed) and some sort of consensus will emerge.
                            I hope that Craig is right and that it's the real McCoy.

                            Comment

                              #149
                              Originally posted by Chris Boonzaier View Post
                              Here is one thing that bothers me.... who would cancel a fake passport?

                              And if Mengele was on the lam with fake Italian docs... isnt an Italian embassy the last place he would turn up with those docs?

                              And if he was on the lam with original docs... the embassy wouls STILL be the last place he would show his face...

                              So who would cancel it... and why?


                              These are really the main questions!

                              The most important: And if Mengele was on the lam with fake Italian docs... isnt an Italian embassy the last place he would turn up with those docs?

                              "Guten tag.... ehhh buenos días... ehhh buongiorno! I am here to cancel my.. ehhh passport" Or maybe this cancellation was done after he got a new passport???
                              Last edited by militaria.no; 01-30-2014, 07:47 AM.

                              Comment

                                #150
                                ...and as wanted for war crimes the first thing I would fear at an embassy is, beside a nosy secretary, a poster like this:
                                Attached Files
                                Last edited by militaria.no; 01-30-2014, 07:08 AM.

                                Comment

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