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    #16
    Originally posted by Obersalzberg View Post
    All of the Kreisau circle and co conspirators were traitors. Even if you tske Hitler out of the equation you are betraying your country and people whilst pursuing the overthrow of your Govt.
    Wow. Really?

    Comment

      #17
      Re: Last survivor of plot to kill Hitler dies at 90

      Unless you were a citizen in 1940's Germany, it would be quite strange to have a strong opinion either way. Its 2013 not 1944 and the world has moved on a long way.

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        #18
        Loyalty to the country always. Loyalty to the government when it deserves it.
        Mark Twain

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          #19
          Originally posted by Robert H View Post
          A true Patriot!

          Yeah,,,whatever .... you win

          Comment

            #20
            Brilliant comeback. Now say "Oh yeah? That's you but what am I?"
            pseudo-expert

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              #21
              I am rubber, you're glue, everything you say bounces of me and sticks on you.

              I had been waiting for the right situation to use that one for a while!

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                #22
                Originally posted by DaveM2 View Post
                A traitor to the Third Reich no doubt - but not a traitor to his country IMHO.

                Yes !! Very well put...

                Comment

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Jean-Loup View Post
                  Funny how some people think that loyalty to a 12 year old corrupt and criminal government is more important than loyalty to the most basic and ancient human moral principles.
                  He was a traitor to one of the most hated criminals in history, that makes him a hero to most of mankind.

                  Of course the notion of traitor or hero all depends whose side you are on, if one were on the same side as Hitler, then it would be normal for such a person to consider this man a traitor.
                  ^ This.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by PANZER332 View Post
                    Patriot?????!!! A traitor.....
                    What a genius... May he rest in peace.

                    Comment

                      #25
                      Originally posted by birdie View Post
                      Yes !! Very well put...
                      The Third Reich.....Reich being the operative word WAS his country like it or not.

                      Comment

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Obersalzberg View Post
                        The Third Reich.....Reich being the operative word WAS his country like it or not.
                        Germany was his country. The third reich was a stain on human history. Nothing more.

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                          #27
                          It has been written that there are several types of courage, and that by far the most difficult to show is moral courage.

                          In the case of the Oberst v. Stauffenberg and his fellow conspirators, I for one am in no doubt that they had moral courage in abundance and history will record their defiance to one of the most totalitarian regimes ever to stain this planet.

                          Regards Richard.
                          Always looking for Luftwaffe Kampfflieger related document groups. In particular anything to Kampfgeschwader 2.

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                            #28
                            you really dont think stauffenbergs attempted murder was in any way connected to morals or to the suffering of the jews, or deaths on the battlefield?
                            it was an attempted coup to replace Hitler with a new aristocratic ruling class military Junta.
                            The Prussian military gentlemen would perhaps nit lose their vsst North Eastern German estates or their long fought for positions in German society.
                            No....this was not moral courage...just a last minute desperate attempt at a negotiated peace. If stauffenberg stood in the room and detonated the bomb himself that would lent him more respect...but, of course he didn't and was willing to hood wink the German people into believing an SS coup was underway and that they killed their Fuehrer.
                            I wonder what would have happened if the plot had succeeded....and the German people discovered the truth behind this act of treason....

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by Obersalzberg View Post
                              you really dont think stauffenbergs attempted murder was in any way connected to morals or to the suffering of the jews, or deaths on the battlefield?
                              it was an attempted coup to replace Hitler with a new aristocratic ruling class military Junta.
                              The Prussian military gentlemen would perhaps nit lose their vsst North Eastern German estates or their long fought for positions in German society.
                              No....this was not moral courage...just a last minute desperate attempt at a negotiated peace. If stauffenberg stood in the room and detonated the bomb himself that would lent him more respect...but, of course he didn't and was willing to hood wink the German people into believing an SS coup was underway and that they killed their Fuehrer.
                              I wonder what would have happened if the plot had succeeded....and the German people discovered the truth behind this act of treason....
                              They would have rejoiced as the War would soon be over. Every German Vet i have spoken too all say the same thing. Their number one concern was having the War end as soon as possible. (read - Allied victory)

                              Loyalty to your Country always, to your government only if it deserves it(they are not the same).

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                                #30
                                Originally posted by Tim OK View Post
                                They would have rejoiced as the War would soon be over. Every German Vet i have spoken too all say the same thing. Their number one concern was having the War end as soon as possible. (read - Allied victory)

                                Loyalty to your Country always, to your government only if it deserves it(they are not the same).
                                thats simply not true. Yes they wanted an end to the war...but a Victorious end.
                                following the plot it is known that General Officers were harangued in the street as the perception was their involvement was 100%

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