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**DaveNZ** · 11-20-2007, 03:21 PM

Well it all depends where your loyalty lay at the time.

i don't think we can sit here in 2007 and act as if we knew what we would do or feel in such a situation: you had to be there to know.

I have read many auto bio's of notable German soldiers and I have yet to read one that expresses anything other than shock and disbelief that the july 20 attempt happended.

same with with the civilian population: from what I have read there was a great deal of shock anger and disbelief at the attempted coup.

but this is just what I have come across in my reading.

obviously there were those that were pro July 20 but i dont think they were in the majority.

hypothetically, if i had sworn an oath of loyalty to a leader, it would have been a decision I would not have taken lightly: and it would not be an oath I would break just when the times got tough, otherwise, I would not have sworn myself to the oath in the first place.

Heros or cowards? depends on what side of the fence you stand.

if i had been in Germany at the time I certainly don't think i would have seen them as heros.

That is just my opinion however

**Jean-Loup** · 11-21-2007, 04:45 AM

"Heros or cowards? depends on what side of the fence you stand."

If you stand on the nazi side of the fence, then they are cowards. I hope that most people after 62 years are NOT on that side of the fence. What a brainwashed and misinformed population back then though about the coup is quite irelevant.

JL

**Theodor** · 11-21-2007, 06:41 AM

Of course they are cowards and traitors! They were military officers, they should follow their oaths and duty. And most of all, they paved this way and walked along it for a whole decade. And suddenly, when all was lost.... BANG! they realised the way is wrong and things should be changed /changed in what way??? Most likely a new leader for the same system/.

A group of German resistance of some kind would be heroes, if did it. I mean civillians or low army ranks.

A group of German high /highest/ officers, who were a part of the big Nazi deal, major elements of the system, who knew some dirty secrets for a decade already and tolerated all events during the mentioned decade... no, not heroes, IMO cowards looking to save the lower parts of their backs.

**olivier** · 11-21-2007, 07:45 AM

Swear fidelity to somebody, a nation or a flag does not mean to be blind and to obey to all and anything.
It exists in the military code an article making it possible to disobey orders if those Ci are contrary with a certain ethics (the oath does not excuse all).
Stauffenberg is not a coward, because he acted, while paying of its life.
Cowardice, it is nothing to do & follow the others.
We can object to his action but, in no case, to treat them of cowards.
They were not loyal to a b...... like Hitler, they were to their country which they served courageously.
And we don't act when we want, but when we can.
German resistance did not act only on July 20.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Resistance

**Simon O.** · 11-21-2007, 07:50 AM

One thing can be said for sure, they were no cowards. All of them knew very well what fate awaited them should the plan fail. A coward would be one of the many that felt the regime was wrong but dared not say so.

However, the other terms used to describe them are a little more complicated to describe.

Traitors? Yes, strictly speaking.
Heroes? Depends on your own beliefs but overall, yes.

**sturmann** · 11-21-2007, 07:57 AM

It exists in the military code an article making it possible to disobey orders if those Ci are contrary with a certain ethics (the oath does not excuse all).

Olivier,

Can you show me this "article" in the German military code that you are refering to which would have been in force in 1944 please ??
or are you merely repeating something you might have heard somewhere some someone as informed as you are ... and this without checking for your self and therefore talking without solid evidence.

I am not taking side - I am just trying to learn more

thanks you,

yves

**olivier** · 11-21-2007, 08:05 AM

Yves, you are player today

**Theodor** · 11-21-2007, 08:09 AM

Yes they would /and most of them did/ pay with their lives in case they failed, they knew that. But this is "the proffessional risk" in the enterprise. Failure was not at all expected, judging on the coward reactions of some of the plotters in the hours to follow.

As for Stauffenberg, this would be true, if he had hug the fuhrer and exploded together with him - a guaranteed success! Instead of that, his planned role was completely different, he planted the bomb and left at an early stage, which allowed Hitler's survival. Stauffenberg did not at all go to pay with his life - if he did, Hitler's second date on the stone would be 1944. as we know, Stauffenberg had a perfect escape route and his plans for his life "after" were a bit different than what actually happened.

even if we leave alone the direct weapon /Stauffenberg/, most names of the rest are highly questionable, I mean well involved with what was going on for years and years, but as said above, their "Good Me" started talking only after all the fronts collapsed, the dream for a castle and land in Ukraine collapsed, too and the hot iron came uncomfortably close to their organs for sitting. They were perfectly comfortable with crushing many other countries and a part of Germany's population, but when the END came close for them, suddenly went to save the Fatherland. Oh yes!

**volksturm** · 11-21-2007, 08:33 AM

olivier"""le lache"""

Olivier"""le graf""

Je prefere m'adresser a toi en Français,tu est un menteur et un connard,tu fais partie d'un forum en Françe qui glorifie Hitler et ici tu donne un autre avis sur le sujet,tu est un traitre doublé d'un lache,je suis Allemand fils d'un parachutiste qui a fais la guerre en Afrique du nord,et j'en suis fiere de mes origines,par contre toi tu est comme le vent tu tourne là ou cela t'arrange,mon a étais prisonnier en Caroline du nord,est il a toujours admiré les soldats US,par contre toi tu insulte De gaulle,sur ton forum est ici tu léche le cul des personnes de ce forum,pour moi tu n'est qu'un lache.

**olivier** · 11-21-2007, 08:43 AM

slt PAUL (vidia01)
Militaria Forum, un forum de fachiste???
moi, lache???
moi, j'ai déjà traité De Gaulle de lache???
ça serait traité mon grand père Yves Le Cabellec, mon oncle et tous ses camarades de laches, t'es con ou tu le fais expret.
Voici mon grand père dans sa cache (pendant que les allemands et les miliciens lui courraient après), à la libération de Plouay sur le front de Lorient.
Connard

....................................

Hi PAUL (vidia01)
Militaria Forum, a fachist forum??? (I am very happy that you was excluded, the Nazis do not have their place there).
me, coward???
me, i have said that "De Gaulle" is a coward???
that would be treated my Grandfather Yves Cabellec, my uncle and all their comrades of cowards, you are idiot or you do purposely
Here my Grandfather in his hiding place (while German and the miliciens sought it), the liberation of Plouay and the Lorient front
jackass

http://i3.tinypic.com/vqp6zb.jpg
http://i3.tinypic.com/vqp9oo.jpg
http://i3.tinypic.com/vqlf9w.jpg
http://i3.tinypic.com/vqllsl.jpg
http://i3.tinypic.com/vqm7bn.jpg
http://i3.tinypic.com/vqma2f.jpg
http://i3.tinypic.com/vqmhip.jpg
http://i3.tinypic.com/vqmk9j.jpg
http://i3.tinypic.com/vqmps5.jpg
http://i3.tinypic.com/vqnl83.jpg
http://i3.tinypic.com/vqnuo0.jpg
http://i3.tinypic.com/vqnzfs.jpg
http://i3.tinypic.com/vqp183.jpg
http://i3.tinypic.com/vqo22s.jpg

we can collect German militaria and not to be a Nazi (the proof, I am collector), you are one and the Nazis, I .... them and what they represent.
I excuse myself near the team of moderation but I know this guy and it is not a good guy

**Bobwirtz** · 11-21-2007, 09:47 AM

I would have a tendency to agree with Theodor. I've been to the Bendler Strasse. This building was the Imperial Navy HQ during WWI and the Army HQ during WWII. There is also a museum there about the German Resistance. It is interesting to see that most of the people pictured in the museum became members of the resistance in 1943, after the turning of the fortunes of war. It is interesting to see the wild and jubulent crowds of Italians greeting the American and British GIs in Rome for their liberation. But those same people were also out there enthusiastically greeting their own troops home after conquests in Albania, Greece, North Africa, Russia, France, etc. It's great when you're winning, but as soon as the tide turns, then everybody wants out. The German Army blindly and happily followed Hitler, receiving their promotions and medals and Marschall's batons for their victories. They cut deals with Hitler to undercut the SA, leaving the Army as the only legitimate bearers of arms in the nation --- Ernst Rohm wanted to replace the old Army farts with the SA, which at the time outnumbered the Army 2-3 million to 100,000. They were all on the bandwagon until it went sour, then they jumped off and made all sorts of excuses after the war, writing their memoirs stating that they never followed Hitler and he was totally responsible for the way it turned out, etc. They also heaped all of the war crimes committed by the Army onto the Waffen-SS. During the war, particularly from 1942-45, they heaped praises on the Waffen-SS for their fighting spirit and ability, just to dump them after the war when it became necessary to put distance between them and the Waffen-SS. Feldmarschall Fitzleben was in charge of the reserve army in Berlin that threw in with the conspirators, then failed to act once Stauffenburg gave the word that Hitler was dead, and then changed his mind and began to round up the conspirators. Hitler had him hung anyway... Talk about a waffle job.

Bob

**sturmann** · 11-21-2007, 10:49 AM

Salut,

http://i3.tinypic.com/vqnl83.jpg

Nice binoculars !! looks like a pair of Huet ??

yves

**colt45s** · 11-21-2007, 10:52 AM

It should be a good movie

**jambobbyb** · 11-21-2007, 11:15 AM

Hero's or cowards totally depends which side of the fence you were on during that period. As we have the benefit of hindsight cant we opt for the third option well meaning incompetents

Heros	67.24%	39 votes
Cowards/traitors	32.76%	19 votes

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