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**DaveNZ** · 11-22-2007, 02:17 AM

Originally posted by pzrwest View Post

So to call the plotters cowards or heroes is a matter of prospective

totally agree

For example Nelson Mandela was locked up for being a terrorist once...now he's a celebrity

some Indiviudual(s) who were involved in known and documented acts of terror against Palestine back in the day (I think Sharon is one) are now high ranking Israeli government members who have good relations with the UK and the USA.

**sturmann** · 11-22-2007, 05:34 AM

La bête a toujours des partisans en 2007.

a) the short-cut is little simplictic to say the least and not your best comment Olivier ...
b) an english translation maybe ?

yves

**PlaceOfBayonets** · 11-22-2007, 06:07 AM

Originally posted by Bobwirtz View Post

The conspirators bumbled so many times with bombs... for crying out loud, they were in the military and so incompetent with bombs. Why didn't Stauffenburg do what somebody ealier suggested and press his briefcase to Hitler's chest, hug him and trigger the devise? Or, better yet, they were still carrying guns, side arms, around Hitler's HQ and into meetings. Why didn't he get very close, pull out his side arm and empty the clip into Hitler? And make sure the job was done. These guys were Army officers, staff officers and field officers. They were trained and practiced professionals who planned huge offensives on the fronts, but couldn't manage to kill one guy, who wasn't that closely guarded at Rastenburg. After this fiasco of course, nobody could carry in a gun to see Der Fuhrer.

Bob

I agree. In the very least Stauffenburg should have run back into the building to see what had been done and if needed shoot anyone he had to. After all he was a dead man anyway if the bomb failed to kill the right people.

Wilhelm

**Andy Harris** · 11-22-2007, 06:24 AM

X2. That's always baffled me as well.

I can see why many would view the conspirators as cowards & traitors, but knowing the destruction the Nazis' policies brought upon Germany, ending the war as soon as possible, in the best possible terms, would have been better than what occurred in the Spring of '45.

**DonC** · 11-22-2007, 10:45 AM

I am on the fence, if for no other reason than the fact that these guys were certainly not in any way "democratic" - they were probaly as reactionary as most of the Nazi heirarchy, although in a monarchist, as opposed to fascist, mold. Remember, one of their tenets for negotiation with the Allies if the plot succeeded was that Germany's borders pre-September 1939 were to be respected - in other words, they wanted to keep Austria, Czechoslovakia and the Memelland as a consolation prize. I support what they tried to do - I think in that sense they were German patriots, although they probably can never be considered progressives.

Just a historical note, it was Bendlerstrasse that has been renamed Stauffenbergstrasse - Prinz Albrechtstrasse is now Niederkirchnerstrasse. And the Bendlerblock is still the Bundeswehr HQ!

Don

**Tommaso** · 11-22-2007, 11:01 AM

War is War.
Soldiers are heroes even if they do not do anything special, just their duty.
I pay my respect to all of them, Germans, English, Americans, French etc.etc.
But I really can't put them in a line along with people who leave a bomb under a table and then he get off the room.
If you got balls and you are not a coward, you take a gun, you shoot just the person you have to shoot and you take your full responsabilities, maybe you'll die, but you didn't killed anybody innocent.
I might respect terrorists like Brigate Rosse, RAF, NAR etc.etc. cause they got balls and they shoot with their hands, they are soldiers and they know they could die now or tomorrow.
But I can't respect bombers.
Bombers are not heroes, just cowards.

**Jim Woods** · 11-22-2007, 11:15 AM

It is a matter of perspective. To the U.S. Benedict Arnold was a trator to the British he was a hero. My point still is treason is treason no matter the circumstances.

**hess** · 11-22-2007, 01:43 PM

traitors

total submissiveness Hitler would have loved you QUOTE Jean Loup

In response to this uninformed comment i have friends who have fought in Iraq and other conflicts .Some do not agree with the war but still fight and do their duty so whats the difference between then and now .They dont even like this govenment but would never condone an attack on our premier.They are in the army to do their duty for the country no matter what.

**Jean-Loup** · 11-22-2007, 02:08 PM

Ask one of your fellow brits to explain what the diffence is Hess...

@ Tomasso:
For you soldiers are heros, but bombers are cowards.
It is heroic to leave milions of mines buried in the ground, to drop bombs and fire shells into civilian targets, to snipe at an ennemy soldier from hidden in the ground, to use gas to poison your enemies like rats.
But if you put one bomb at a very precise place, to kill the mastermind behind the killing of milions of inocent, then you are a coward of course.

By the way, considering Stauffenberg was a soldier AND a bomber, how do you classify him? As a cowardly hero?

JL

**hess** · 11-22-2007, 03:31 PM

no just a plain lowlife traitor who deserved to get executed if left to people of your opinions the world would be left to the extremists .

**Jean-Loup** · 11-22-2007, 04:02 PM

You have to set your ideas straight man: Hitler WAS an extremist, and was allied with many others of his type trying to get the world under control of extremism!!!
Hitler also did not hold his word on multiple occasions, and got numerous people murdered in ways infinitly more lowly then what Staufenberg tried.

I said before Hitler would have liked your way of thinking, and apparently it goes both ways.

**Federico Perez** · 11-22-2007, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Andy Harris View Post

X2. That's always baffled me as well.

I can see why many would view the conspirators as cowards & traitors, but knowing the destruction the Nazis' policies brought upon Germany, ending the war as soon as possible, in the best possible terms, would have been better than what occurred in the Spring of '45.

Unfortunatly for the german people that train left the station some time ago for that comitment during that period of time, the situation now was unconditional surrender of ALL german forces to the Allied powers, several American and British military officers(Patton was one of the first) as well as some politicians(Prime minister Winston C.) knew that the next BIG problem will be the Soviet Union, and the big chunk of Europe they will want as well as the dictatorial system they will impose in the "liberated" nations, and it happen almost exactly as the say it will.

An anauncement or rumor of unconditional surrender only forged the will to fight of the soldier and civilians to the very end, remember that after WW1 Germany was not "invaded" in the full sence of the word but very harsh conditions and important parts of the nation where striped from german control, creating an social,political and financial caos that would be the fundations for Hitler,T.R. and the fanatical devotion to never go back to 1918.

With this new war, more destructive,biger enemies and biger hate from ALL sides for diferent reasons, the german people belived that this time the victors would go further than 1918 and compleatly erase the german nation and culture from the face of the earth.....for them was victory or death, and the propaganda machine of the T.R. used that fear until the very end.

The plot failed because EVERYONE of the conspirators wanted to be the new LEADERS/SAVIORS of Germany......ALIVE. None of them wanted to do the ultimate sacrifice and die in the act to kill the madman and securing success for the coup, in other words...become a REAL hero to the Fatherland.

Fred

**hess** · 11-22-2007, 05:37 PM

J Loup you are full of sweeping statements you no nothing about me and implying im a AH sympathizer is totally uncalled for .but this is the sought of reaction from an obvious lefty .Any person who states opinions other than yours is a nazi supporter .As a final note i myself think war appalling waste of life and many acts in it crass and inhuman.BUT on some occasions needed when other options fail.Enough said

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