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July 20 conspirators, heros or cowards

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    #16
    I think "coward" cannot be used for these guys-- I'm surprised ANYBODY here is uninformed enough on the political climate in Germany in 1944 to think that these men imagined anything other than death for themselves should their plan fail. And the historic record shows they DID imagine they might fail.

    The question should be "heroes or traitors" or "patriots or traitors", which, I would agree, would come down to what side of the fence you come down on. In the summer of 1944, there were certainly still Germans suffering from the delusion that the war was winable for Germany, and to those people the conspirators must have seemd like traitors. But, contrary to what some people have said here, the German army did NOT "blindly" follow AH. On the contrary, from veterans I have talked to, to first hand written accounts, many front line soldiers and officers knew, often quite early, that the cause was lost. Their problem was that there was simply nothing any of them could do about it. They didn't have much of a choice except to defend Germany to the extent possible.

    As it turns out, the conspirators were right-- Germany lost the war, her cities were destroyed to a greater extent in early 1945 than they had been before, her industry and art were looted, her women raped, and the country was partitioned for 40 years. Who knows what fate would have awaited Germany had the conspirators succeeded, but at least THE POSSIBILITY would have existed for a negotiated surrender, had Hitler been out of the way. As it was, the hammer and sickle went up over the Reichstag and, at least in spirit, stayed there for 40 years.

    The conspirators were naive, they were overconfident, they were ill-organized, but they were certainly courageous-- they clearly knew that even TALKING about killing AH could get them shot, and yet they went out on a limb time and again, to recruit more conspirators, any of whom could have (and some who did) rat on them, and ultimately they went through with their plot, gambling with their lives, and lost.

    In the end, I would have to call them patriots, not traitors-- it is obvious to me that they were acting as they did not for personal aggrandizement or to gain power as one would in a traitorous coup, but to try in a last-ditch effort to save Germany from her terrible fate, a fate that, as the war wore on, AH almost seemed to be TRYING to realize... a great national Götterdämmerung. Their motives were clearly patriotic in the best sense of the word, in that they placed loyalty to their country and concern for the fate of its people above their allegiance to their leaders, and above their lives.

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      #17
      Kartofelpreußer

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        #18
        The conspirators bumbled so many times with bombs... for crying out loud, they were in the military and so incompetent with bombs. Why didn't Stauffenburg do what somebody ealier suggested and press his briefcase to Hitler's chest, hug him and trigger the devise? Or, better yet, they were still carrying guns, side arms, around Hitler's HQ and into meetings. Why didn't he get very close, pull out his side arm and empty the clip into Hitler? And make sure the job was done. These guys were Army officers, staff officers and field officers. They were trained and practiced professionals who planned huge offensives on the fronts, but couldn't manage to kill one guy, who wasn't that closely guarded at Rastenburg. After this fiasco of course, nobody could carry in a gun to see Der Fuhrer.

        Bob

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          #19
          After reading quite a few books from army officers accounts, I'd say that their oath was first to Germany and then to Hitler. Guderians, Schellenbergs and Gehlens all wrote also that Hitler was ruining the war by constant bad decisions/indicisions and Micro management. Hi mistrust in Military intelligence ended up being fatal in the Battle of Kursk, the battles on the Vistula and Oder. He refused to accept that the russians had a tank superiority of 7:1, artil. 10:1 airforce similar. (don't quote me on the exact numbers but the odds were fairly extreme.), yet he acted irresponsibly with his forces. I think a large number of officers saw his mismanagement. I think the officers then have to act in the best interest of the soldiers and country.

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            #20
            Their oath was to Adolf Hitler, not Germany, the Republic, etc. The words in the oath specifically say ADOLF HITLER and nothing more.

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              #21
              the 3°Reich was a dictatorship and AH a dictator
              They were obliged to oath to him, they did not have the choice (the loyalty has its limits)

              Last edited by olivier; 11-21-2007, 01:44 PM.

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                #22
                traitors without doubt .You cant pick and choose conflicts govenments decide to put the armed services in .If you disagree with a war you dont kill your countrys premier .You do your duty.

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                  #23
                  "If you disagree with a war you dont kill your countrys premier .You do your duty."

                  Total submissiveness . Hitler would have loved you.

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                    #24
                    I for one am gald that a movie finally came out about the heroes of July 20. 1944. I think there is a difference when it comes to attempt a coup against a Dictatorship compared to a Democratic Government. In a Democratic Government you as the voters as well as the House and Senate have the right to impeach and/or vote out your leader. In a Dictatorship there is no voting system and any negativity will be the end of you and possibly your family. The
                    only logical response was to dispose of Hitler and svae what was left of Germany and its people. As Spock said to Capt. Kirk when he was dying and Kirk asked him why he did it, he said "The Needs of the Many Outweigh The Needs of the Few"

                    Coburg22

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                      #25
                      Kartofelpreußer is RIGHT! they fought and died for what they believe in**

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by Jean-Loup View Post
                        "If you disagree with a war you dont kill your countrys premier .You do your duty."

                        Total submissiveness . Hitler would have loved you.
                        c'est consternant Jean Loup!!!
                        C'est à croire que demain, ça pourrait repartir de plus belle avec certains.
                        La bête a toujours des partisans en 2007.
                        Amicalement, olivier

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by Jean-Loup View Post
                          "Heros or cowards? depends on what side of the fence you stand."

                          If you stand on the nazi side of the fence, then they are cowards. I hope that most people after 62 years are NOT on that side of the fence. What a brainwashed and misinformed population back then though about the coup is quite irelevant.

                          JL
                          After 62 years the world is quite a different place so is it possible for us to know what we would feel or do back then?

                          Technically they are traitors without a doubt: what else could they be.

                          Heros or cowards? Depends on what you believe in.

                          car bombers in iraq are seen as heros by their people. they aren't seen that way in the USA.

                          Personally, while I admire the fact they put themselves on the line (and paid the price), I do wonder where all these people were when the blitzkrieg was rolling through europe.

                          They certainly werent shaking their fist at hitler behind his back then.

                          Seems to me that their version of loyalty was very subjective.

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                            #28
                            btt

                            Excellent post DaveNZ. I always think everything is subjective, one mans terrorist is another mans freedon fighter. I have talked to many older Germans who felt that no matter how bad these guys felt the regime had become, it gave them no right to kill. it wwill be interetsting to se how they are portrayed in the movie.

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                              #29
                              Traitors??? Cowards???

                              The only traitors were Hitler and those that blindly followed him. They were traitors to the German people. Starting a war that would needlessly cost the lives of 7.5 million of the German people for the perverted ambitions of a very, very few.

                              How can anyone call them cowards? They gave their lives up for a cause. Willing to sacrifice one's life for what one believes is the antithesis of cowardice.

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                                #30
                                I guess it does come down to which side of the fence you are sitting on. Here's an example were the Americans fighting in the War of Independance freedom fighters or terrorists??? to the american people who wanted freedom from England they were freedom fighters, to the British they were terrorists as they didn't fight according to the rules of war for that period they hid behind trees bushes etc and fired at the British in ambushes. So to call the plotters cowards or heroes is a matter of prospective

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