V1 Rocket site Visit

[behblc]

Holocaust

Some good points brought out here and some which really don't hold water.
The Holocaust connection to the V1 and V-2 projects must be the Dora complex - there is no doubt that slave labour was used there and that the welfare of the workforce was well down the list of priorities.
What has Dora got to do with the Holocaust - everything , it was as much a part of it as any of the main concentration camps and extermination camps.

I think what Jon might be getting at is that the "Holocaust" is being used for political purposes today in oder to mask the human rights crimes going on in Palestine committed by the Jewish State.
Agreed Jewish victims of WW2 should be remembered, but when "thought crimes" are utilised by a European state to enforce a particular belief, that is disproportionate.
Too many have "hopped on to the "Holocaust bandwagon" eg take the National Director of the Anti Defamation League, a Mr A. Foxman who claims to be a "Holocaust Survivor"-he wasn't even born when Germany invaded his Polish homeland.
When I think of Holocaust, I think of the Soviet Union.

David there are a few parts of your post which I would contest.
1. "Thought Crime" is the plea and terminology employed by those who deny the Holocaust.
The Holocaust is not a "particular belief " , its a proven historical fact.
I would hasten to and that it was not a Jewish only experience , Hitler endorsed the murder of German children and the mentally ill via T4 , he had no problem gassing and murdering them - this is as much a part of the Holocaust as what followed .

Mr. A Foxman - I know nothing about him or any claims he may have made.
Might he have been born after the Germans invaded , say between 1940 -45 ?

Likewise I don't want to be seen to be hijacking a thread and taking it off course and would apologise to Jon , David and the Moderator if this appears to be the case.
The production of the V weapons is certainly linked to slave labour drawn directly from the camp system.
As far as Berchtesgaden goes , never been there but would like to see it if only to walk the same routes that Hitler did.
The camp inmates a means of illustrating the contrast between the life style of the previous owner and a reminder of what he was responsible for ?

Jon's photographs - what must it have been like to have been under the bombs , pure hell !!
The V-1 ramp - how they imagined that they would not be shot to hell I don't know.

After The Battle have a well written and illustrated article about this complex its building and its destruction , also the Nordhausen Doar complex which has recently been explored and some "lost" V-2 sections found.
The complex at its lower levels is largely flooded and it was here that the V-2 parts came to light.

Thanks Jon for some intersting photos , much appreciated.

[Sal Williams]

David,
Thanks for your imput and you have some interesting things to say ,the Palestine issue had not really occured to me in the past. I'm afraid with my simple mind it is purely a continual pain in my head that when I go to a V1 or V2 or V3 site there will be displays there relating to concentration camps.
when I want to learn about concentration camps I will go to them [I have infact been to Auswich,Dachau already and going to Sachenburg next week]
Sal.... Yes you are right,to a point. These sights used forced labourers and paid labourers,but not concentration camp victims.
When you go to the Berchtesgaden 'Documentation centre' below the eagles nest the first thing that greats you is nothing to do with the amazing construction of the Berghoff or the history of the area it is a huge picture of dying Jews in concentration camp clothing.Is that also because they used forced labour there? Infact the workers there were paid and treated very well as it was a dangerous and skilled job.

Hi Jon,
I see what you are saying, but much of the world are not collectors nor well versed on WWII. I don't mind wading through the holocaust stuff at these sites if it educates people on the nazi regime. And in a way it is valid to show holocaust stuff at any historical nazi site.

[Sal Williams]

I think what Jon might be getting at is that the "Holocaust" is being used for political purposes today in oder to mask the human rights crimes going on in Palestine committed by the Jewish State.
Agreed Jewish victims of WW2 should be remembered, but when "thought crimes" are utilised by a European state to enforce a particular belief, that is disproportionate.
Too many have "hopped on to the "Holocaust bandwagon" eg take the National Director of the Anti Defamation League, a Mr A. Foxman who claims to be a "Holocaust Survivor"-he wasn't even born when Germany invaded his Polish homeland.
When I think of Holocaust, I think of the Soviet Union.

Sorry if you think I'm hijacking your thread Jon, nice pics thanks.

And you just scare me. So when you think holocaust you think of the soviet union? Not when you see pictures of the nazi death camps and piles of bodies and gas chambers? Darn those pesky jews always whining

[Jon Fish]

Hi Jon,
I see what you are saying, but much of the world are not collectors nor well versed on WWII. I don't mind wading through the holocaust stuff at these sites if it educates people on the nazi regime. And in a way it is valid to show holocaust stuff at any historical nazi site.

Fair comment Sal I can understand that now.I had not considered it from 'Jo Public's' point of view.You have a good point.
Jon

[Sal Williams]

Fair comment Sal I can understand that now.I had not considered it from 'Jo Public's' point of view.You have a good point.
Jon

Jon, I forgot to mention great thread and it made me want to go see it! And I do know what you mean about the holocaust stuff, I would rather see the sites just purely as what they are too but I understand and think that it serves a purpose to show it there. you would be amazed at how much folks don't know about the holocaust.

best, Sal

[David G]

Darn those pesky jews always whining
[/QUOTE]

You said it!

[David G]

BEHBLC

"David there are a few parts of your post which I would contest.
1. "Thought Crime" is the plea and terminology employed by those who deny the Holocaust."


-It may well be, however I'm referring to a particular state who will in fact prosecute you if you deny the Holocaust.I can't speak for those who deny the Holocaust as I'm not one of them.


The Holocaust is not a "particular belief " , its a proven historical fact.
I would hasten to and that it was not a Jewish only experience , Hitler endorsed the murder of German children and the mentally ill via T4 , he had no problem gassing and murdering them - this is as much a part of the Holocaust as what followed .

-Firstly, I'm not denying the Holocaust, so please don't try to incorrectly paraphrase me.
I would have the thought rightly or wrongly, an individual has the right to hold whatever belief he chooses to hold.
It goes beyond all proportion to prosecute for a belief-I don't see how a thought-in this case the denial of the Holocaust should consitute a crime in any shape or form.
The individual should be at Liberty to hold his beliefs without threat by the state as long as no-one is harmed by those beliefs.

"Mr. A Foxman - I know nothing about him or any claims he may have made.
Might he have been born after the Germans invaded , say between 1940 -45 ? "

He may well have been, but as he and his parents survived, then I take a victim as being exactly that-suffering by imprisonment or death.

I believe there have been more than a few who have hijacked the Holocaust cause and sincerely hold that this demeans the millions of victims who died or were cruelly imprisoned simply for their religion.

[David G]

And you just scare me. So when you think holocaust you think of the soviet union? Not when you see pictures of the nazi death camps and piles of bodies and gas chambers? Darn those pesky jews always whining

Scare you? come on, you're a big boy now-right?

Well yes I do think of the Soviet Union when I think of Holocaust, so many more died that were never filmed.The war's greatest tradgedy was the suffering that the Soviets went through and there unprecedented losses which the world has never before seen.

By the way,in all sincerity, can you tell me where you saw the gas chambers on film?

[Richard]

Sorry if this is taking the thread in the wrong direction but I see a trend here that has developed since the end of the war and seems to lean in one direction to a greater degree as time goes on. Nice pictures and tour by the way.

The Holocaust was a pretty dark period in history but I'm getting discouraged and disheartened that it is becoming something that history is beginning to view as purely a Jewish suffering. The majority of those killed certainly were Jewish but it is a total injustice to not remember the other 6 million that perished as well. No one seems to care about them anymore. There aren't lawyers fighting to get their families compensation and they seem to be fading into the background of history. Shouldn't they be featured prominently in the telling of this dark chapter? Maybe someone who has toured the camps and other Holocaust exhibits could tell me if equal time is given to these poor victims as well or are they being considered of too little value to care about, which would be a crime in itself?
Richard V

[behblc]

Maybe someone who has toured the camps and other Holocaust exhibits could tell me if equal time is given to these poor victims as well or are they being considered of too little value to care about, which would be a crime in itself?

Richard having seen some of the camps I would say that it is not viewed as something Jewish only. See my contribution to the Auschwitz thread in Living History.

David I will make no further reply on this thread as this thread is going far enough off subject.
The areas being explored here have little direct bearing on the photographs and subject matter, they are perhaps better addressed by pm or on another forum.

[Richard]

Fair enough. Getting back on subject, Jon was the V-1 at the exhibit a mock up or an original? Looks pretty cool.
Richard V

[Jon Fish]

Fair enough. Getting back on subject, Jon was the V-1 at the exhibit a mock up or an original? Looks pretty cool.
Richard V

they said it was an original but I think it was a little too small for that? maybe someone who knows these will chime in. I certainly got a thrill walking up a V1 rocket launch pad !

[David G]

David I will make no further reply on this thread as this thread is going far enough off subject.
The areas being explored here have little direct bearing on the photographs and subject matter, they are perhaps better addressed by pm or on another forum.[/QUOTE]

BEHBLC

Yes you're correct of course way of topic and unfair to Jon after providing those pics.

[Richard]

they said it was an original but I think it was a little too small for that? maybe someone who knows these will chime in. I certainly got a thrill walking up a V1 rocket launch pad !

It still looks cool. I don't have any idea how large they really were but based on the launch tracks it does appear to be about the right scale. Too bad it wouldn't fit in your car!
Richard V

[behblc]

V1's

About ten years ago a company in England was selling Spitfires and V-1's ut of fibreglass , can't recall what they went for , could well be one of these.