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**NZMark** · 01-21-2008, 02:02 PM

Hi All,
The one that got away...it's out there - somewhere

Very Cool Pith, Lenny

Mark.

**milcollector** · 01-21-2008, 04:27 PM

tunic and photo

re. the tunic and photo of that tunic being worn (in Tunisia).

I tend to harbour doubts as to whether this photo was taken in Tunisia. I say it most likely was taken in Italy post May 1943 or possibly even Sardinia ,Crete or Sicily.
If it is Tunisia then it is the first photo I have ever seen of the Afrika cuff being worn in Afrika by an army guy.
Veterans memories fade with time and they get facts mixed up.
My reasoning is based on the blurb from this very website on the Afrika cufftitle.

As below:

Although instituted 15 January 1943, it is unlikely that more than a handful of awards were issued in North Africa before the general surrender on 6 May 1943 and the final capitulation on 13 May. The few short months between institution and capitulation would have been insufficient for the manufacture and distribution to North Africa of the cuffband. This would certainly have been made all the more difficult by the tenuous supply line through the Mediterranean and the challenges faced by the German forces in their final weeks of battle. Earliest known awards show as having been made in May 1943 and these seem to have all been made to Luftwaffe personnel who were probably members of Luftwaffe units stationed in or already evacuated to Italy and Sicily

**NZMark** · 01-21-2008, 05:08 PM

Phil,
You could well be correct. The memories of veterans is not always the best! I'll do some digging and see if there is any more information from the source of the photos.
Mark.

**Tim O'Keefe** · 01-21-2008, 07:32 PM

Hello Andy & everyone

Outstanding photo of DAK soldat and ....tunic pic ! Really tells the story.
Agree with Phil, not likely that the Photo is from Tunisia. Soldat has Afrika CT (not even AK CT). These were not worn in Afrika. to my knowledge. You can also see the shadow of where the belt has been worn over the tunics midwaste in the photo of the tunic itself. Just above the lower pocket flaps.

Just a side note. No need to wear a AK CT on your tropical tunic in Afrika. (everyone there already knows your in Afrika). You would save it to be worn elsewhere. Thats why so few tropical tunics originally had the AK Ct applied. Less that 5% wore CT in Afrika. (closer to less than 1% more likely, mho) but nowadays many AK CT have been added to tropical tunics post war, even second and third pattern, too bad.

Notice the DAK soldats pocket flaps folded upwards at corners. It appears both have been turned upward from field use. (bent not folded left flaps like the 3-4 examples I mentioned before & Mark G's Pz tunic..) This is do to the pockets being too close to the armpit and arm movement creates the flap to bend upwords at corner, through constant use this becomes a permanant feature of these tropical tunics. Except for the very few exceptions mentioned so far that have the upper left flap creased and folded at right angle...prior.

Patrick, those maps really have caught my eye. Are they all dated '41 ? any earlier ? The German High command dismissed the need for maps of Afrika, as late as '38, as there would be no need for them at all !! Even then the High command never dreamed German troops would be deployed in Afrika.....

Thankyou so much for posting a closeup of the area around strongpoint 33 and the El Adem crossroads...This is where the 5th Pz regt attacked Easter '41 with the 8th MG Bn getting cut off overnight. Very informative and helpful.

Tim

**MilitaryCollect** · 01-22-2008, 03:08 AM

Any DAK items

Hi,

Here's a neat link on the Good Friday, April 11, 1941 offensive:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~johncor/bat_april11.html

Further, it appears from this source that Rommel did not have maps of the Tobruk defenses until Saturday, April 12, 1941, which he received from the Italians:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~johncor/bat_april12.html

Also confirmed in this site (Rommel received only two maps of the Tobruk defenses from the Italians just before the German's attack on April 12):

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resour...ler/miller.asp (Info found under "III. CONCLUSIONS" - subpart: "Intelligence").

Therefore, Patrick's map of the Tobruk garrison's defenses was created subsequent to the April, 41' offensive ~ perhaps 42' and may well be of German defensive positions inherited after Tobruk fell on June 21, 1942 (see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gazala)

Perhaps the Tobruk map (VERY detailed AOK printed map of defensive positions) dates sometime between June 21 and November 11, 1942 - when Britian recaptured Tobruk.

Christopher

**Tim O'Keefe** · 01-22-2008, 04:01 AM

Christopher

Yes its true the DAK and Rommel did not even know of the Italian dug anti-tank ditch that was not quite completed but almost enclosed Tobruks perimeter when the attacks on good Friday were launched. The Italian Allies had failed to mention it prior.....Nice links too.

Tim

**MilitaryCollect** · 01-22-2008, 04:16 AM

Any DAK items

Hi Tim

Indeed, the anti-tank ditch, and poor panzer/infantry coordination, resulted in the abandonment of 8 MG Bn by the panzers. Oberstleutnant Ponath, commander of 8 MG Bn, was killed on April 14, 1941 during this action. He received the Knight's Cross - awarded for heroism on 13 April 1941:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~johncor/lea_ponath.html

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...reuz/RKP-R.htm

Here's another really neat link from another great site regarding the events of April 14-16:

http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.a...305&view=topic

And here is a link to a site containing the written memorializations from a German panzer officer with 5th Le. Div. (Pzr. Rgt. 5) regarding the events of April, 1941 (1st Tobruk offensive):

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/william...77/tobruk.html

See also: http://www.afrika-korps.co.uk/forum/...ic.php?p=40115 (Link to site containing excerpts from Oberstleutnant Ponath's diary).

Originally posted by In the papers of: [U

http://www.awm.gov.au you can find extracts of the diary of Oberstleutnant Gustav Ponath (8MG btn) in: 9^ Div Ftr Australiana (Intelligence Summary No 40); and a report of Olbrich on the attack of 5 PzR 11-14 apr '41 in: 9^ Aust Div App. “A” of the Intelligence Summary no. 67.

I am certainly most interested in learning more about Patrick's magnificient maps.

Christopher

**Hohenstaufen** · 01-23-2008, 08:21 PM

DAK Hats

Everyone,
Hello, just pick up these two nice tropical hats. The one is a KM, but based on its wear it could have been issued to a DAK member or possibly POW worn, anyway, its a nice salty one. The next is a nice worn Army tropical with sweat stains and a little tear in the sweatband, but that gives it character IMO. I am working on some super nice DAK stuff and when the deal gets completed, then I will post pics of the items later.
Enjoy, Grant.

**Hohenstaufen** · 01-23-2008, 08:22 PM

inside.

**Hohenstaufen** · 01-23-2008, 08:23 PM

Army tropical

**Hohenstaufen** · 01-23-2008, 08:24 PM

inside shot

**Hohenstaufen** · 01-23-2008, 08:25 PM

shot of damage

**NZMark** · 01-23-2008, 10:03 PM

I like salty - and nothing wrong with tropical KM, either.
Wonderful caps, Grant!
Mark.

Attached Files

KM%20002.jpg (108.7 KB, 826 views)

**MilitaryCollect** · 01-24-2008, 12:31 AM

Any DAK items

Grant, Mark - BEAUTIFUL caps!

Christopher

**alphared6** · 01-24-2008, 11:55 AM

Hello all. I'm new to this group. I collected from 1968 to 1987 when I had to stop active collecting because of my current occupation. I have been very impressed with all I've seen here and the professional and courteous manner in which everyone communicates.
Please forgive me during this period of learning just how this all works.
I am in possession of an odd badge made of brass. It looks like the patch worn by members of Sonderverband 287/288. I can find no pictures of a German soldier wearing this badge nor any ref to it. It would appear to be theatre made as it is not the quality of Germany manufacture. I have pictures but I can't figure out how to post them in here. So I have two questions. 1, anyone out there have any information on this badge? And 2, how do you post pictures?

Thank you,
MAJ Michael E. Gonzales, USA (Ret)

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