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**msteve21** · 04-07-2013, 02:54 AM

Kalender

NCO
Kalendar looks to be standard issue, nice pick up
Any idea what written inside?

Chris
An amazing find and just goes to show, you never know what will pop up out of the woodwork.
Imagine how rare it would be to discover one of those caps

Mark S

**Tim O'Keefe** · 04-07-2013, 03:38 AM

Nice find Chris. Oustanding photo

Cant really tell what color the soutache is, But most look like a dark shade(green ? )when compared to the faded caps except for the guy on the right wearing the sidecap, his does look lighter than the rest ?

Here is a photo from the 3rd Recon Bn from Afrika. Hopefully the owner won't mind too much

Attached Files

3rdcavtunic5.jpg (54.9 KB, 837 views)

**Mark Gibson** · 04-07-2013, 04:16 AM

Hello Chris,

A very interesting grouping with traditions badge. Nice to see some early insignia including the 1st pattern cockade, which is very scarce as you know.
What is most interesting is the photo. I have seen this before. Has it been published?

Mark

**NCO** · 04-07-2013, 06:20 AM

Chris,
It's very interesting to know that inside this Kalander it has few German entries up till Sunday 21st 1943.
From then onwards there is some entries in English with mention of N.Z attack on P.201 which was successful.
The next morning there is some heavy shelling at 05.00 hrs with someone being killed that morning before dawn.
My understanding of this Kalender is that it was confiscated by the allies and used onwards from the 21st,,,it still has entries in German till the Wednesday before on 17th March.
From what I know the Eighth Army was on the move during that time and Churchill was very satisfied with Montgomery's progress.
The German entries mention Tripolis a few times during 15th & 18th Jan and also mention 2/382 Kompanie on the 3rd Feb & 3/382 Kompanie 24th Feb.
Perhaps this German had fallen into enemy capture and had his belongings taken away during this period.
Can any of these clues above help add to this, perhaps 90thLight and NZMark can shed some light.

cheers
nco

Originally posted by msteve21 View Post

NCO
Kalendar looks to be standard issue, nice pick up
Any idea what written inside?

Chris
An amazing find and just goes to show, you never know what will pop up out of the woodwork.
Imagine how rare it would be to discover one of those caps

Mark S

**90th Light** · 04-07-2013, 07:30 AM

Originally posted by MarkG View Post

Hello Chris,

A very interesting grouping with traditions badge. Nice to see some early insignia including the 1st pattern cockade, which is very scarce as you know.
What is most interesting is the photo. I have seen this before. Has it been published?

Mark

Thank you Mark.G, Mark.S & Tim for the kind comments.

Mark G, yes I agree no problems with that cockade which is reassuring after my last effort on that topic.

I do not know if the photo has been published or not. It is in a wee pocket album which was brought back from Afrika by a NZ soldier in 1943. The German whose album it was, seems to be a driver or gunner in an anti-tank unit. It starts in Germany with their training & issue of tropical uniforms and finishes with all sorts of photos taken in Afrika. He does not appear to be in AA3 but what is interesting is the shells in front of those AA3 troops in the photo. Maybe they were training with his unit ???

Chris

**90th Light** · 04-07-2013, 07:33 AM

Originally posted by NCO View Post

Chris,
It's very interesting to know that inside this Kalander it has few German entries up till Sunday 21st 1943.
From then onwards there is some entries in English with mention of N.Z attack on P.201 which was successful.
The next morning there is some heavy shelling at 05.00 hrs with someone being killed that morning before dawn.
My understanding of this Kalender is that it was confiscated by the allies and used onwards from the 21st,,,it still has entries in German till the Wednesday before on 17th March.
From what I know the Eighth Army was on the move during that time and Churchill was very satisfied with Montgomery's progress.
The German entries mention Tripolis a few times during 15th & 18th Jan and also mention 2/382 Kompanie on the 3rd Feb & 3/382 Kompanie 24th Feb.
Perhaps this German had fallen into enemy capture and had his belongings taken away during this period.
Can any of these clues above help add to this, perhaps 90thLight and NZMark can shed some light.

cheers
nco

Hello NCO,

very interesting. Here is an over-view of where 2NZEF were at that time. They had just returned to the line after fierce battles against 15 Panzer in December 1942;

"A further unsuccessful attempt to get to the rear of the withdrawing Axis forces took place at Nofila.[11] The division then remained in reserve in the Nofilia area until early January when it was ordered forward to take part in the final push through Beurat and advance the remaining 200 miles (320 km) to Tripoli. The operation began on 15 January[11] and by 21 January Tripoli was less than 50 miles (80 km) ahead.[12] However, skilful delaying tactics allowed the Axis forces to withdraw in good order and when leading elements of Eighth Army entered Tripoli in the early morning of 23 January its defenders had left.[13]"

When I get a chance, I will look out my official histories and try to find out more for you,

Chris

**Mark Gibson** · 04-07-2013, 07:42 AM

Chris,

It hasn't been published but I did know it from somewhere. After having a quick look I realised that it is also from a photo grouping that I have in my collection. Perhaps from a soldier in the same unit. I'll have to take a look and see how many photos I have from the grouping and what other interesting shots I have. This is just one of the group that I had scanned.

Mark

Attached Files

**Mark Gibson** · 04-07-2013, 07:50 AM

Here is a portrait from the grouping.

Mark

Attached Files

scan0011 WAF.jpg (66.1 KB, 830 views)

**90th Light** · 04-07-2013, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by MarkG View Post

Chris,

It hasn't been published but I did know it from somewhere. After having a quick look I realised that it is also from a photo grouping that I have in my collection. Perhaps from a soldier in the same unit. I'll have to take a look and see how many photos I have from the grouping and what other interesting shots I have. This is just one of the group that I had scanned.

Mark

Thanks Mark,

it is like we are playing the card game "snap". A photo of same group of AA3 brought back to both sides of "the ditch". It really is a small world sometimes.

I am pleased you can hold it in hand and see the tradition badges clearly. It will be interesting to see if you have any more images of those badges being worn so I look forward to what else you might report.

Had you realised that they had them on their caps ? My photo is that small album size and I was looking at the artillery shells when I discovered the badges were there,

Chris

p.s. what colour do you think the soutaches are esp. the sidecap ?

**Mark Gibson** · 04-07-2013, 08:04 AM

Chris,
I couldn't even hazard a guess at the colour of the soutache since they are very difficult to determine from black and white. The photos are very small but the scans were very detailed considering their size. I had not realised that the soldiers in the photos had traditions badges. I will take a look for more when I get the chance; I have to find them first as I have over 3000 photos in my collection.

Mark

**90th Light** · 04-07-2013, 08:07 AM

Originally posted by MarkG View Post

Chris,
I couldn't even hazard a guess at the colour of the soutache since they are very difficult to determine from black and white. The photos are very small but the scans were very detailed considering their size. I had not realised that the soldiers in the photos had traditions badges. I will take a look for more when I get the chance; I have to find them first as I have over 3000 photos in my collection.

Mark

Cheers Mark,

I will look forward to what else you might find. I know what it is like trying to find things after you have been collecting for some time. Just finding the time to do it is tough enough,

Chris

**Hille76** · 04-07-2013, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by MarkG View Post

Here is a portrait from the grouping.

Mark

Really small world. I have the same photo in my collection.

**Tim O'Keefe** · 04-09-2013, 05:01 AM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Thank you Mark.G, Mark.S & Tim for the kind comments.

I do not know if the photo has been published or not. It is in a wee pocket album which was brought back from Afrika by a NZ soldier in 1943. The German whose album it was, seems to be a driver or gunner in an anti-tank unit. It starts in Germany with their training & issue of tropical uniforms and finishes with all sorts of photos taken in Afrika. He does not appear to be in AA3 but what is interesting is the shells in front of those AA3 troops in the photo. Maybe they were training with his unit ???

Chris

It is much more likely that all these solders are from the PzJg platoon, Schwere Co. of AA3 Bn. Except those shells look larger than a 37mm.

Each Pz Div's Recon Bn had 3-4 Co's, a Schwere Co with a PzJg platoon, 81mm Mortor and/or a 75mm IG platoon and a Pioneer platoon. Along with the Armored Car Co and Motorcycle Co's.

The original DAK Recon PzJg platoons in the Schwere Co's had the 37mm AT and platoon of PzJg I's (attached from 605 PzJg Bn to AA3) at the outset. Along with a platoon of 75mm IG's and the Pioneer platoon. Later the 37mm were upgraded to the 50mm AT.

The German Recon Bn's were a combined arms team able to fight for information when needed, while the Allied Recon Bn's were more scouts in the traditional role.

Thursday April 11 marks the 72 year anniversary of the DAK initial attacks on Tobruk through that fateful Easter weekend April 13/14 '41. The first attack April 11 was not a recon in force, it was an attack. With two platoons each of Pz II, Pz IV, and Ariete's M13's, 25 AFV's in all, they failed to find a way across the antitank ditch which the Italians had started and the Australians were finishing. The Germans did not know of the AT ditch prior to the attack and the Italians failed to mention it....the next day a similar attack also failed to find a way across the AT ditch. If they had found a way across that ditch and Tobruk had fallen, the War may have had a very different ending. Thank God for those Diggers

The attacks over Easter weekend had 38 Panzers fit (out of the 150 in the 5th Pz Regt) the rest were strung out in the Desert back to Mersa Brega.

Heia Safari !

**Mark Gibson** · 04-09-2013, 06:22 AM

Originally posted by Hille76 View Post

Really small world. I have the same photo in my collection.

That's what happens when the ebay photo sellers break up groupings.

Mark

**NCO** · 04-15-2013, 08:00 AM

Cheers Chris,
I look forward to more info when time permits.
Cheers
nco

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Hello NCO,

very interesting. Here is an over-view of where 2NZEF were at that time. They had just returned to the line after fierce battles against 15 Panzer in December 1942;

"A further unsuccessful attempt to get to the rear of the withdrawing Axis forces took place at Nofila.[11] The division then remained in reserve in the Nofilia area until early January when it was ordered forward to take part in the final push through Beurat and advance the remaining 200 miles (320 km) to Tripoli. The operation began on 15 January[11] and by 21 January Tripoli was less than 50 miles (80 km) ahead.[12] However, skilful delaying tactics allowed the Axis forces to withdraw in good order and when leading elements of Eighth Army entered Tripoli in the early morning of 23 January its defenders had left.[13]"

When I get a chance, I will look out my official histories and try to find out more for you,

Chris

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