Spade,Carrier,Bayo Set 2

[sfmike1]

Here's the next one....late war 44-45. The spade is marked "obp 1944". The carrier has no manufacturer's mark (like many similar ones with the straps stitched to the rear). Strangely, it does has a WaA stamp which looks like WaA920 (maybe "cey").

The bayo is a matching "cof 44", and the late frog has an illegible RBNr. stamped on the rear. It's top strap was cut off (neatly) at some point.
SF Mike

[Sleepwalker]

Hello,

this is not a "late" frog... this is a model to carry the bayonet with the Entraching-Tool since 1942.

So this frog belongs to the Carrier Set 1

and the frog in Set 1 belongs to this carrier.

The securty strap of the frog is missing.


Regards

[anmarlodz]

Shovel cover was made by fkx probably somewhere before mid 1944. As said above bayonet frog is M 42 and it is missing securing strap ( which was cut off ).

[sfmike1]

Thanks everyone. (I did mention that the top strap was cut off in the post). When did this type of frog come into use? I know they say 1942, but I hardly ever se one in period photos. All the examples I've seen have RBNr.'s, not maker's marks, so I would assume mid '43 at earliest for these. Incorrect? Sleepwalker seems to imply this model was specially made to use with the folding e-tool. I've never heard that before - only that it was a later version.
SF Mike

[Sleepwalker]

This is not a "lalter" or a "simplified" frog. This are fantasy constructions... and wrong.

The best sources are the german orders and writings out of this time.

This frog were indruduced in 1942, together with teh tropical frog... in the construcion you can find many analogys.
RBNR ware used since 1942 on frogs, too.
You also can find this kind of frog with the 3-letter-Code.

The correct name ist "Seitengewertasche für das zusammenklappbare Schanzwerkzeg"
= " Frog for the folding entrenching tool"
"M42" is not official Name, but the best of the new collector-creations.

[sfmike1]

That's great info Sleepwalker - thanks.

[Grubhy]

Sleepwalker,

If something has been introduced in 1942 it is M42. It is a lot better name than "Seitengewehrtasche Neuer Art" This therminology it is not "new creation", it has been proposd by Gordon Rottman in his book in 1991 and enable to identify one pattern. Besides one and the same item has different names in two different period manuals, depends from year of the issue.

Mike,

would you place some more pics here? It will be great to watch these from few more angles.

This is not a "lalter" or a "simplified" frog. This are fantasy constructions... and wrong.

The best sources are the german orders and writings out of this time.

This frog were indruduced in 1942, together with teh tropical frog... in the construcion you can find many analogys.
RBNR ware used since 1942 on frogs, too.
You also can find this kind of frog with the 3-letter-Code.

The correct name ist "Seitengewertasche für das zusammenklappbare Schanzwerkzeg"
= " Frog for the folding entrenching tool"
"M42" is not official Name, but the best of the new collector-creations.

[anmarlodz]

This is not a "lalter" or a "simplified" frog. This are fantasy constructions... and wrong.

The best sources are the german orders and writings out of this time.

This frog were indruduced in 1942, together with teh tropical frog... in the construcion you can find many analogys.
RBNR ware used since 1942 on frogs, too.
You also can find this kind of frog with the 3-letter-Code.

The correct name ist "Seitengewertasche für das zusammenklappbare Schanzwerkzeg"
= " Frog for the folding entrenching tool"
"M42" is not official Name, but the best of the new collector-creations.

Well web tropical frogs were introduced in early 1941 as early as other tropical gear was introduced.
The M42 was introdued in late 1942 along wirth M42 belt as ersatz model ( as other ersatz items like steel canteens or steel messkits ) but wasn't in field use until 1943.

[MP44_tom]

The best sources are the german orders and writings out of this time.

The correct name ist "Seitengewertasche für das zusammenklappbare Schanzwerkzeug"
= " Frog for the folding entrenching tool"

Hi Sleepwalker

Would you be so kind and share the german orders ?? I have been looking over the Heeres Mitteilungen, and Heeres Verordnungsblätter, but have not been able to find anything......

As we both share the same interest (and that is to be historically correct about certain equipment items) I would love to see the orders to back up your claim about these Seitengewehrtasche

Tom
www.mp44.nl

[Sleepwalker]

No... the tropical weg frog were indroduced in April 1942 (see in the "Ausstattungssoll für Bekleidung und Ausrüstung" , see also Luftwaffen-Verordnungsblatt April 1942 "Ausstattungssoll für Bekleidung und Ausrüstung - Tropen"). Al the maker marks are out of 1942 and 1943... no one original out of 1941.

Don´t confuse the indruduction of the the tropical uniform with the indroduction of the web belt and frog.

Other informations to frogs etc. you can find in later additions and writings to the H.Dv.122A and the L.Dv. 422 Teil1.

Regards

[anmarlodz]

No... the tropical weg frog were indroduced in April 1942 (see in the "Ausstattungssoll für Bekleidung und Ausrüstung" , see also Luftwaffen-Verordnungsblatt April 1942 "Ausstattungssoll für Bekleidung und Ausrüstung - Tropen"). Al the maker marks are out of 1942 and 1943... no one original out of 1941.

Don´t confuse the indruduction of the the tropical uniform with the indroduction of the web belt and frog.

Other informations to frogs etc. you can find in later additions and writings to the H.Dv.122A and the L.Dv. 422 Teil1.

Regards

Sorry will disagree; I have seen and had first pattern "grass" GREEN equipment dated 1941 ( backpacks and Y-straps found along with it which were CLEARLY dated 1941 ). And you will not convince me that web tropical belts and frogs were introduced later in 1942 as many period photos from 1941 clearly shows tropical web equipment ( belts, y-straps, frogs ). Even later models of y-straps or belts made in tan web are dated 1941.

And one more thing ; I'm not confusing introduction of tropical uniforms with introduction of web equipment as they were introduced in the very same period which 1941 !

[Sleepwalker]

I see no only one original 1941 stamp... what is normal... because the webbing were indroduced in 1942. Also the german original documents say this.

[sfmike1]

I guess this post has opened "a can of worms" (as we say here). Excellent topic though....I would love to see the orders for both tropical and "M42" frogs as well.
SF Mike

[Grubhy]

I would like to ask to assure my understanding your point of view:- Basic tropical equipment has been introduced in 1942? I'm talking about Belts, Y-straps, bayo frogs, breadbags.

I see no only one original 1941 stamp... what is normal... because the webbing were indroduced in 1942. Also the german original documents say this.

[Sleepwalker]

the ordes and writings you can find in thr military Archiv in Freiburg Germany. it is open to everybody.

i meen the belts, frogs und y-straps and buckles. the tunic trousers came out in 1941. First together with leather belts and frogs.

on original equipment you can find stamps from 1942 and 1943.

if somrone have one of 1941... please show...