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    #31
    I don't think we need to re-ignite the brick smock debate, or at least wouldn't recommend it. The real value in this thread is the discovery of a badly damaged brick smock that supports the reports of the bales being found with rodent, mildew, and other long-term storage damage decades ago.

    This smock proves that age-damaged bale smocks exist, as stated by Hirtz, Floch, and others present when the smocks were originally found. That's all I believe we need to take forward from here.

    s/f Robert

    Comment

      #32
      Originally posted by Dennis S View Post
      I also photographed the smock , here are the Pockets

      Were they very Stiff?

      Comment

        #33
        I got some old RDF cammies from a fellow Marine when I was in back in the 80's. He stored them poorly in his shed. The ones in the bottom of the seabag had this kind of water damage, stiff brittleness, and moldiness. A couple of sets were salvageable. They were only a few years old by the time I got them.

        Storage damage to the smock doesn't add proof that they were WW2 stocks of uniforms. That only proves poor storage conditions.

        Comment

          #34
          Originally posted by Daniel.S View Post
          Were they very Stiff?

          To a certain degree with the pocket area of HBT the stiffest. I believe the HBT absorbed and held the most moisture in contrast to water resistant duck. As I said the smock on the whole felt a bit fragile to the touch ,I guess because of the stiffness . I don't know if it really was fragile as I didn't pull on it or stress it.

          Comment

            #35
            Originally posted by Marc Shaffer View Post
            I got some old RDF cammies from a fellow Marine when I was in back in the 80's. He stored them poorly in his shed. The ones in the bottom of the seabag had this kind of water damage, stiff brittleness, and moldiness. A couple of sets were salvageable. They were only a few years old by the time I got them.

            Storage damage to the smock doesn't add proof that they were WW2 stocks of uniforms. That only proves poor storage conditions.
            Correct, but on the other hand if these were uncovered in 1979 and the one showed was in the condition of the damaged ones seen by others then they would have to be made at least years earlier then 1979 and They would have to be stored very poorly by the faker and then sold.......and of course there are different degrees of poor storage so that would correspond with Speed and degree of damage..... Or if old who's to say they were stored poorly for their entire lifespan . Maybe stored well at first then moved ...who knows.

            Many scenarios are possible . The few Floch has left may even been stored poorly by him in the last 30 plus years also .

            As I stated their are too many possible scenarios .

            I think the thing that this rotted smock does though is give some credence to the observers of the original shipment to the first damaged smocks seen..... as the damage matches their description.

            Comment

              #36
              Originally posted by Dennis S View Post
              Correct, but on the other hand if these were uncovered in 1979 and the one showed was in the condition of the damaged ones seen by others then they would have to be made at least years earlier then 1979 and They would have to be stored very poorly by the faker and then sold.......and of course there are different degrees of poor storage so that would correspond with Speed and degree of damage..... Or if old who's to say they were stored poorly for their entire lifespan . Maybe stored well at first then moved ...who knows.

              Many scenarios are possible . The few Floch has left may even been stored poorly by him in the last 30 plus years also .

              As I stated their are too many possible scenarios .

              I think the thing that this rotted smock does though is give some credence to the observers of the original shipment to the first damaged smocks seen..... as the damage matches their description.

              Very true. But speaking from experience in dealing with treating very hard water, I know that this kind of damage to cloth from hard water can happen in a matter of a couple of weeks. It looks like the old rags that we left behind in a pile sometimes. The cloth becomes brittle, hard and soured over a short amount of time. The white stuff on the smock pictured looks like calcium/magnesium that leeches out of hard water. Of course, it could have come out of concrete if they were stored on a concrete pad. But like you said, many scenarios are possible. Just saying that the damage may match the story for the smocks, but it doesn't really tie them to being original. And as so many have said over time, don't buy the story.... buy the.....

              Comment

                #37
                Originally posted by Marc Shaffer View Post
                Very true. But speaking from experience in dealing with treating very hard water, I know that this kind of damage to cloth from hard water can happen in a matter of a couple of weeks. It looks like the old rags that we left behind in a pile sometimes. The cloth becomes brittle, hard and soured over a short amount of time. The white stuff on the smock pictured looks like calcium/magnesium that leeches out of hard water. Of course, it could have come out of concrete if they were stored on a concrete pad. But like you said, many scenarios are possible. Just saying that the damage may match the story for the smocks, but it doesn't really tie them to being original. And as so many have said over time, don't buy the story.... buy the.....



                I agree ....just my observations , I thought they would be of interest .

                Comment

                  #38
                  I looked at the fakers table.
                  He had a bunch of other cammo that was no doubt water damaged and rotting.
                  Like why bring this garbage to a show.
                  The pink had been given extra love to enhance it.

                  How much was it ?

                  Why is the one for sale on e stand not been scooped up by an intrepid believer in fake cammos ?

                  Comment

                    #39
                    I think like 400 to 500 hundo

                    Comment

                      #40
                      Owen were those hooded camos any good that were hanging ? I don't know diddly about them or even looked at them.

                      Why didn't you talk to him for the hell of it ??

                      Comment

                        #41
                        Originally posted by kammo man View Post
                        I looked at the fakers table.
                        He had a bunch of other cammo that was no doubt water damaged and rotting.
                        Like why bring this garbage to a show.
                        The pink had been given extra love to enhance it.

                        How much was it ?

                        Why is the one for sale on e stand not been scooped up by an intrepid believer in fake cammos ?


                        I emailed the Textile Conservation Workshop , in South Salem , New York , one of the top places for texitle restoration for museums n the country. Here is what they said :

                        Hi Don, hope all is well with you too! We agree that the damage appears to be water staining and mold. There may also be some dye-bleed and white, crusty, salt efflorescence.

                        Patsy Orlofsky, Director
                        Textile Conservation Workshop

                        Comment

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Dennis S View Post
                          Owen were those hooded camos any good that were hanging ? I don't know diddly about them or even looked at them.

                          Why didn't you talk to him for the hell of it ??
                          I had a friend do an extensive interview with Floch at SOS with written prepared questions on the subject . As soon as I get his notes and go over them I will publish them here. Floch was very forthcoming and candid in detail about the source and other things.

                          Comment

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Dennis S View Post
                            The first smock shown was sold by Floch himself . I handled the smock ,it had a bit of mold on it , felt like it was going to fall apart holding it , felt kind of rooted to the touch and hbt pockets were kind of shrunken and bunched up into a hard mess . I spoke extensively to him about the smocks nothing earth shattering but interesting information . Quite candid and animated . I'll write later .

                            The other smock being sold by the dealer was tagged 2900 . I believe it was the same one I saw last year at 1900. Kind of irrelevant to argument either way.
                            Dennis, I didn't look closely at his tables. Did he still have any of this bogus Luft trop trousers with all the mould on the seat area?
                            Willi

                            Preußens Gloria!

                            sigpic

                            Sapere aude

                            Comment

                              #44
                              D
                              The water pattern jackets were real and water damaged
                              The pink has contrived damage pretty easy to see in person
                              What's the point of talking to a faker. ,
                              My show is way more precious than talking to scum bags.

                              Comment

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Willi Z. View Post
                                Dennis, I didn't look closely at his tables. Did he still have any of this bogus Luft trop trousers with all the mould on the seat area?
                                I had one pair but no mold. I gave them to a new collector as a gift to go with his tropical shirt , Trop Berlino cap and pith helmet I sold him


                                Sorry Willi I misread your post. No I didn't see any of those. I assumed you mean the thin ones with aluminum buckles. Sold as French made I believe originally ?

                                Comment

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