Norwegian Arm/sleeve Raven~Germanic SS

[Rick C]

I would really like to get some reaction to a bullion wire embroidered Norwegian Raven I have. This came in so long ago I wasn’t serious enough into collecting this stuff that I was keeping track of where the devil it came from or any details at all. It looked so minty I had always assumed it was junk thus paid it no mind. It recently surfaced in my office when I was moving the office from the second floor to the first. Curiosity got me for long enough to stumble on A.H. Thomassen’s thread about a bullion Norwegian bird here in 2005: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...96349#poststop

It was said it “ its trying to emulate German style embroidery. The few real
examples I have seen of this bird have all had a much looser construction style.” Bob Hritz commented “I have yet to see a believable Norge eagle in bullion and all the originals I have seen, for the sleeve, are machine embroidered, and for the cap in BeVo.” (Having read a few threads I learned these things aren’t ‘eagles’ at all but Norwegian Ravens.)

[Rick C]

So, I posted my Raven (about 4” across by 2” high), presumably a sleeve insignia, on Thomassen’s thread but there were no more comments let alone any reaction/observations on my bird.

[Rick C]

I figured, after a time, it doesn’t cost anything to research so I thought I might look around some to satisfy my curiosity that, were it fake, there should be others about but in this forum but beyond Thomassen’s bullion bird and the link over to a similar one sold by Soldat, there was very, very little and certainly not one looking like the subject bird.

Indeed, I couldn’t find any on the web searching a variety of difference criteria (Norwegian sleeve eagle, raven germanske SS, bullion, etc.) thus, where there was little interest before, I was becoming intrigued now. I mean, how could you not want to find out more about a bird with a face like this:

[Rick C]

Under magnification I note it’s sporting unterlagen which doesn’t react to UV (nor does anything else); the bird and its components are completely dead to ultraviolet. So, even though it looked like it was made yesterday and therefore, little interest before in this raven/sun bird/eagle or whatever folks call these, there was now increasing interest. Heck, I don’t collect Norwegian Germanic SS stuff, I just liked the use of silver and gold tone wire in its construction.

[Rick C]

So, while what few examples (sleeve insignia) I found (like the one below: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...83542#poststop) were, as Bob pointed out, machine made but, not to be deterred (yet) I showed photos to John Casino sort of chuckling to myself and waited for the hammer to fall. Surprisingly, he came back saying it wasn’t done in the German style which was a good sign, that minty things do turn up now and then and that he believed it stood a “good chance” at being a period done Norwegian bird.

I sent it to him for a hands-on.

He related after examining it “The Norge eagle shows proper construction and not of the German style. Some of the wire has aged naturally, so we do know there is some years involved with it. I personally like the grosgrain ribbon behind the cross and the wax paper reverse. It has a bit of a goofy appearance but it is far better made than what can be seen on the market today. Understanding that the embroidery style and materials are and should be different from those used by the Bratwurst lovers. I would investigate known originals for comparison, but at this point I would not throw it into the pyre.”

So, as stated above, I’m throwing this out for (hopefully) some analysis. I’ve copied a few folks who’ve commented on the threads I read, notably some Norwegian collectors in the hope of getting some eyes on this that might not occur were I to simply launch the thread and ‘hope’ the right folks will find it.

Hoping for your help.

[Rick C]

[rzzzm]

Its a fake ..never done in silverwire..

[Christian J]

Quislings personal Kepi.

https://digitaltmuseum.se/0110244467.../media?slide=0

[Rick C]

Photos of the cap in case the link goes bad.

Thanx!

[Rick C]

Another view of the Quisling kepi raven. Sorry for the lack of focus.

The consensus, thus far is they never did bullion wire ravens. I appreciate the comments. RC

[militaria.no]

First of all: I have never seen an identical raven before, but after seeing the detailed photos I find this reasonable:

I showed photos to John Casino sort of chuckling to myself and waited for the hammer to fall. Surprisingly, he came back saying it wasn’t done in the German style which was a good sign, that minty things do turn up now and then and that he believed it stood a “good chance” at being a period done Norwegian bird.

I sent it to him for a hands-on.

He related after examining it “The Norge eagle shows proper construction and not of the German style. Some of the wire has aged naturally, so we do know there is some years involved with it. I personally like the grosgrain ribbon behind the cross and the wax paper reverse. It has a bit of a goofy appearance but it is far better made than what can be seen on the market today. Understanding that the embroidery style and materials are and should be different from those used by the Bratwurst lovers. I would investigate known originals for comparison, but at this point I would not throw it into the pyre.”

So, as stated above, I’m throwing this out for (hopefully) some analysis. I’ve copied a few folks who’ve commented on the threads I read, notably some Norwegian collectors in the hope of getting some eyes on this that might not occur were I to simply launch the thread and ‘hope’ the right folks will find it.

Hoping for your help.

Second: When unknown never before seen Norwegian NS items items turn up this is always the question: Is this one of the Norwegian scam artist `Ilmari Erko`s (his pseudonym) `Ladyboys` made in Asia (aka an item constructed by him to fool other collectors to spend money on something that isn’t what they think it is...).

But the raven in question looks as if it was made even before Ilmari was a glance in his father’s eyes.

I will show something else as I believe this raven might be a proto type and this proof decisions were made even though items were never made or only made in limited quantity:

This is related to Vidqun Quisling`s Førergarden:

It is known Førergarden used silver frosted buttons for the dark blue garde jacket. Then suddenly – last year – a similar cap button turned up. Bent as it has been attached to a `luestolpe` (cap badge). I bought the button and posted photos and description on a Norwegian forum. Unfortunately without any replies.

This is the cap button:

[militaria.no]

Førergarden frosted silver buttons for dark blue garde jacket:

[militaria.no]

This is a later m43 `luestolpe` (officer) for a green Førergarden cap. This had another type of silver button:

[militaria.no]

Could this silver frosted cap button be a prototype for dark blue garde caps?!?

Well: Both privates, NCOs and officers are known to have used a rosette. My point: Many NS items are still unknown to collectors. What they made and what they decided not to use. When these items survived to our times we get confused and majority of collectors says no no no - never made!

[militaria.no]

NS cap insignia embroidered in silverwire. As collectors we cannot determine what they experimented with!

Minister R. J. Fuglesang, august 1941: